The Trinity Explained

[Minimalist]

Then you were old enough to know better and still fell for a load of shit. At least kids have an excuse.

[IceSage]

Shows how little you know about God and scriptures.

No, it shows how little YOU know about scriptures. In fact, recognizing that the 3 entities that make up the Trinity, are all one entity, is the key point OF the Trinity and understanding the death of Jesus.

So God was sacrificed, but not God? Leave the "Son" and "Father" out of it, as we know they're two separate entities in a way. However, you typed it out yourself, they're both GOD.

How is it possible to leave out the Father and Son, you also watch to many movies about gods outside the Bible. Read the NT and you will find the answer there.

It's very possible to leave out the "Father" and "Son," in your case for example. Both the "Son" and "Father" are "God." Again, your own knowledge of the bible is certainly lacking, and you're suppose to be the Christian here. You can't even grasp the concept that's suppose to bring you salvation!

Why do you assume that everyone who discusses something with you, somehow attributes everything to TV or movies? I've read the New Testament, trust me. I've read the Bible cover to cover. I've discussed the bible and examined it. You're using non-sequitor logic, instead of actually proving or presenting your point.

Instead of accusing someone of not having knowledge, and attributing it to television, movies, or other media... How about you point out where that person is wrong, and then show them how they are wrong. You have a bible setup perfectly to reference verses... However, whenever Christians are at a standpoint where they can't actually give an intelligent answer back, to make for adequate discussion, they instead go off topic, use a non-sequitor, or give a strawman argument.

Again, I state what I stated when I first posted. Both the "Son" and "Father" are both one entity, God. This IS from the New Testament. Don't tell me to go back and "read the new testament" when this is exactly where I'm taking it from. Do not reply back with, "This -Media- corrupts your understanding of Christianity." or anything similar, because that's a cop out and frankly, not even a very good point for discussion.

We're on the topic of Christianity's "Holy Bible." So that's what I'm discussing?

Did I mention Zeus at any point when talking about Jesus, or God? Did accidentally start talking about Ra?

No, I didn't. So don't start saying stupid things like you've been saying. Learn how to discuss and debate, not argue as if you're a child.

Prove to me using scripture how God created man with flaws, the reason I ask for scriptures you yourself have said it's the only place to find things about God.

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

So, perfect beings screwed up... Doesn't seem so perfect to me.

Those perfect people were given the freewill to make choices and they made the wrong one. God told them if they ate from that tree it would bring death, He gave them a warning and they chose to ignor that warning. It was not a design flaw it was disobedience on their part. Freewill is in no way a design flaw.

If they were perfect they would not have made the wrong choice. Can you say that 99% of what God does is the "wrong choice?" No, because God is suppose to be Perfect. Thus, there are only two possible ways this can happen:

1) Everything God does, no matter how anyone else views his actions, is always perfect, even when considered imperfect. Thus, every action he takes is a "perfect action." Thus, if he decided to kill women, children, and babies (which he has) those actions are "perfect" no matter what, as he is a "perfect being."

2) God is the model for "perfection" -- And anything he does or expects, is perfection. Anything he does not like, is imperfect.

Thus, Adam and Eve weren't perfect in either cases, or else they would still be perfect, and there would be no "fall of man" or original sin.

Applying Adam and Eve to #1:

Adam and Eve, as perfect beings, both make the choice to disobey God, and eat the fruit. This action, however, does not suddenly corrupt them and make them imperfect. If they're perfect beings in the definition of example 1, then this action was a "perfect action" -- And they've done nothing wrong.

However, this is not the case, as they die spiritually and eventually die physically, thus, they are imperfect. You can't be Perfect and Imperfect at the same time, thus they must have started out Imperfect, or else they would not be able to fall victim of this trickery, and they would not suffer sin, or the ill effects considered to be the "fall of man."

Applying Adam and Eve to #2:

God creates Adam and Eve, and VIEWS them to be Perfect upon their creation. However, they eat the fruit, and God views them as imperfect. However, God created them to BE perfect, which means if they are now imperfect, they were never "perfect" to begin with. Especially when you attribute the fact that God is all knowing, and sees all. God knew this would happen, and let it happen anyway... So they were IMPERFECT before he even created them, and considered them "Perfect."

However, also, God's actions are always "Perfect." Creating Adam and Eve, was something perfect. Knowing they would fall, also means that this too, is perfect. To God, the fall of man IS PERFECT.

But if they're perfect, then that means they meet God's standards, and thus, sin is perfect, etc.

However, we know this can not be the case, since God views them, and all man, as IMPERFECT. He viewed this before he even created them. Thus, he views something "Perfect" (anything they do must be perfect thereafter) as something "Imperfect." (not to God's standards.)

Since they are not to "God's standards" -- And also, since God judges mankind for eternity, as God is eternal, then that means, they are not perfect, and never were perfect.

Shall I list all the passages where humans end up dying? To die doesn't seem "perfect."

If you wish, please give only the book, chapter and verses that way it want take as long, also do not forget to include all the verses about the death of Jesus.

So you already know it would take too long, so I don't even NEED to list them all. If humans are perfect, then they would not die.

[DeistPaladin]

And somehow I've got the impression of that the christianity was a monotheistic religion...
If God the Son is not God the Father then you have at least two different gods. correct me if I am wrong..

Christianity is the only faith that tries to be monotheistic and polytheistic at the same time.

There are three "parts" to the Christian god, which are all separate yet part of the same being:

1. The Creator ("father")
2. The Begotten ("son" or Jesus)
3. The Within ("The Holy Spirit")

Now Christians have a poorly understood idea about the inter-workings of these parts, which was the subject of debate among all the different Christianities in the first few centuries prior to the Council of Nicaea in 325. Some of these early Christians (Marcionite) thought Jesus was a separate and higher god. Some (Ebionite) thought Jesus was just a man who was possessed by the spirit of Yahweh. Some thought he was an apparition or an illusion sent by God (Docetic).

Christology was a problem for the early Christians. Jesus could not forgive sins or be prayed to for redemption unless he was God (see first commandment). But then if he's God, who is he praying to? The earliest Gospels (Matt, Mark and Luke) all clearly treat Jesus as a separate being. He speaks of God in the 3rd person, prays to God in the 3rd person, and is introduced by a booming voice from the sky (presumably God) in the 3rd person.

The solution (such as it is) and ultimate compromise (which it certainly was) was the Trinity. Jesus is God and also not God. When Jesus is praying, that's when he's not God. When Jesus is forgiving sins, that's when he's God.

As you read the Bible, you can see the progression from Jesus being a prophet (in Matt, Mark and Luke) to being the incarnation of Yahweh (John). The "advanced theology" is what leads me to think John came much later when they needed a Gospel to justify the Trinity.

The "Holy Spirit" was an interesting addition to the mix. Described in Acts, the Holy Spirit is a piece of God that allegedly inhabits the hearts of those who accept Jesus, allowing faith healing, speaking in tongues, etc. This is why some of the more loopy Christians think they can heal or cast out demons. You often hear them say "in the name of the Holy Spirit". What they're doing is invoking the power of God they think (or act like they think) lies within them.

Muslims have a different idea of the Holy Spirit. I think they understand it as revelation for angel Gabriel (or "Ja-bril")

At first glance, Islam seems like a more rational version of Christianity, since they jettison the whole Trinity nonsense. I've heard Muslim apologists make that claim ("Judaism is God 1.0, Christianity is God 2.0 and Islam is God 3.0"). The big problem I see with Islam is wouldn't God have gotten it right the first time?

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Also, I don't think it's much of a sacrifice if after you die, you get to be a all-powerful superbeing.

I wonder why the resurrection was necessary at all.

If Jesus is Yahweh incarnate, then Jesus is nothing more than a "human suit" or avatar of Yahweh. Once that body has filled its purpose, why resurrect it?

If Jesus is not Yahweh, then Jesus would simply go to Heaven upon death and again the bodily resurrection isn't necessary.

Either way, it seems a moot point except for all the drama. [mock realization] Hey, maybe that's why it's part of the story and this is yet another indication that all this is just a work of fiction!

[Godscreated]

[quote='Godschild' pid='95369' dateline='1285124274']
Shows how little you know about God and scriptures.

No, it shows how little YOU know about scriptures. In fact, recognizing that the 3 entities that make up the Trinity, are all one entity, is the key point OF the Trinity and understanding the death of Jesus.

So God was sacrificed, but not God? Leave the "Son" and "Father" out of it, as we know they're two separate entities in a way. However, you typed it out yourself, they're bothGOD.

Explain to me please how 3 entities can be one entity, I do understand the Trinity as discribed in scripture and if you think I'm buying your version of my God then you are wrong. As for the sacrifice of Christ only one part of the Godhead gave His life even though all three were involved and suffered. I still say you know very little about scripture, reading a book does not make one knowledgable on a subject. This would be like me reading a book on building a dam and then calling myself knowledgable on the subject.

How is it possible to leave out the Father and Son, you also watch to many movies about gods outside the Bible. Read the NT and you will find the answer there.

It's very possible to leave out the "Father" and "Son," in your case for example. Both the "Son" and "Father" are "God." Again, your own knowledge of the bible is certainly lacking, and you're suppose to be the Christian here. You can't even grasp the concept that's suppose to bring you salvation!

I am a christian and do understand what salvation is about and how it's a free gift from God, only because Christ gave His life has this become possible for me. If you knew what I know about the living God you would not be an atheist instead you would be a believer. You can not leave out the Father, Son or Holy Spirit and have salvation, so how is it that you think that you can leave them out of the means for salvation.

Why do you assume that everyone who discusses something with you, somehow attributes everything to TV or movies? I've read the New Testament, trust me. I've read the Bible cover to cover. I've discussed the bible and examined it. You're using non-sequitor logic, instead of actually proving or presenting your point.

I do not assume that everyone that disagrees with me gets their info from the TV, that comment was to poke fun more than to describe your knowledge on the subject. Like I said above reading means nothing when usable knowledge is not gained. Your statement that God sacrifced Himself to Himself tells me you have little usable knowledge of the Bible.

Instead of accusing someone of not having knowledge, and attributing it to television, movies, or other media... How about you point out where that person is wrong, and then show them how they are wrong. You have a bible setup perfectly to reference verses... However, whenever Christians are at a standpoint where they can't actually give an intelligent answer back, to make for adequate discussion, they instead go off topic, use a non-sequitor, or give a strawman argument.

Again, I state what I stated when I first posted. Both the "Son" and "Father" are both one entity, God. This IS from the New Testament. Don't tell me to go back and "read the new testament" when this is exactly where I'm taking it from. Do not reply back with, "This -Media- corrupts your understanding of Christianity." or anything similar, because that's a cop out and frankly, not even a very good point for discussion.

I've not gone off topic the discussion is on the Trinity and you seem to think that trinity means just one and that is not Bibically true. The Trinity was involved in creation, the Trinity is not a NT idea as many would have people to believe, they are there at the beginning. I want come back with the media corrupts your understanding it's your lack of knowledge about the true living God that holds you back. God the Father+God the Son+God the Holyspirit= Trinity or Godhead. Three persons of God makes the Godhead, they are of the same mind and heart, this is what Jesus was saying when He told the disciples that He and the Father are one, "when you have seen Me you have seen the Father". Jesus told His disciples that He did only what the Father was doing or in simpler english I'm doing what the Father instructs. Jesus also told His disciples that He could not remain with them, for if He did the Helper could not come. He gave them specific instructions on where to go and wait for the Helper "Holyspirit". Seems to me that the true authority on God shed plenty of light on the subject some 2000 years ago. Three persons of God equals the Godhead which is the only true living God.

We're on the topic of Christianity's "Holy Bible." So that's what I'm discussing?

No it's the Trinity.

Prove to me using scripture how God created man with flaws, the reason I ask for scriptures you yourself have said it's the only place to find things about God.

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

So, perfect beings screwed up... Doesn't seem so perfect to me.

Those perfect people were given the freewill to make choices and they made the wrong one. God told them if they ate from that tree it would bring death, He gave them a warning and they chose to ignor that warning. It was not a design flaw it was disobedience on their part. Freewill is in no way a design flaw.

If they were perfect they would not have made the wrong choice. Can you say that 99% of what God does is the "wrong choice?" No, because God is suppose to be Perfect. Thus, there are only two possible ways this can happen:

1) Everything God does, no matter how anyone else views his actions, is always perfect, even when considered imperfect. Thus, every action he takes is a "perfect action." Thus, if he decided to kill women, children, and babies (which he has) those actions are "perfect" no matter what, as he is a "perfect being."

2) God is the model for "perfection" -- And anything he does or expects, is perfection. Anything he does not like, is imperfect.

Thus, Adam and Eve weren't perfect in either cases, or else they would still be perfect, and there would be no "fall of man" or original sin.

Applying Adam and Eve to #1:

Adam and Eve, as perfect beings, both make the choice to disobey God, and eat the fruit. This action, however, does not suddenly corrupt them and make them imperfect. If they're perfect beings in the definition of example 1, then this action was a "perfect action" -- And they've done nothing wrong.

However, this is not the case, as they die spiritually and eventually die physically, thus, they are imperfect. You can't be Perfect and Imperfect at the same time, thus they must have started out Imperfect, or else they would not be able to fall victim of this trickery, and they would not suffer sin, or the ill effects considered to be the "fall of man."

Applying Adam and Eve to #2:

God creates Adam and Eve, and VIEWS them to be Perfect upon their creation. However, they eat the fruit, and God views them as imperfect. However, God created them to BE perfect, which means if they are now imperfect, they were never "perfect" to begin with. Especially when you attribute the fact that God is all knowing, and sees all. God knew this would happen, and let it happen anyway... So they were IMPERFECT before he even created them, and considered them "Perfect."

However, also, God's actions are always "Perfect." Creating Adam and Eve, was something perfect. Knowing they would fall, also means that this too, is perfect. To God, the fall of man IS PERFECT.

But if they're perfect, then that means they meet God's standards, and thus, sin is perfect, etc.

However, we know this can not be the case, since God views them, and all man, as IMPERFECT. He viewed this before he even created them. Thus, he views something "Perfect" (anything they do must be perfect thereafter) as something "Imperfect." (not to God's standards.)

Since they are not to "God's standards" -- And also, since God judges mankind for eternity, as God is eternal, then that means, they are not perfect, and never were perfect.

I've heard a lot of things about God and perfection before but nothing as illogical and unfounded as this, maybe I should mention the

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TV

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"careful about what you might reveal" because this surely is the craziest thing I've ever read or heard.

Shall I list all the passages where humans end up dying? To die doesn't seem "perfect."

If you wish, please give only the book, chapter and verses that way it want take as long, also do not forget to include all the verses about the death of Jesus.

So you already know it would take too long, so I don't even NEED to list them all. If humans are perfect, then they would not die.

Yes please do and show how much you know about scripture and like I said before don't leave out all the passages about Christ. Adam and Eve were created by the perfect God and so they as the rest of creation was perfect which God said in Genesis "all is good". God did not create robots to be controlled at His every whim they were given freewill to live a life of free choice but they chose against God's will and so the immediate spiritual death and the later phyisical death became reality just as it was promised. This also brought a corruption to the entire creation.

[IceSage]

Shows how little you know about God and scriptures.

No, it shows how little YOU know about scriptures. In fact, recognizing that the 3 entities that make up the Trinity, are all one entity, is the key point OF the Trinity and understanding the death of Jesus.

Um, that's what I said in my first post... did you misquote what I said or are you trying to type this back at me? That was my POINT to you. That the 3 entities are all ONE ENTITY, God. So please explain to me how "God" did not "Sacrifice himself, to himself" when you just said exactly what I said, and repeated it back to me, when that's the point I was trying to make that at first you presented that you failed to have knowledge in.

Or I'm guessing you screwed up the BB code.

Explain to me please how 3 entities can be one entity, I do understand the Trinity as discribed in scripture and if you think I'm buying your version of my God then you are wrong.

And by "my version" I'm talking about what's written in the Christian Holy Bible. I wouldn't be discussing this subject with you if I wasn't talking in your belief system. If I wasn't interested in discussing your beliefs, and that bible that contains them, I'd just flat out tell you that it doesn't matter because the book isn't true and doesn't matter. Instead, I'm discussing something and a subject that's based around your beliefs.

As for the sacrifice of Christ only one part of the Godhead gave His life even though all three were involved and suffered. I still say you know very little about scripture, reading a book does not make one knowledgable on a subject.

No, but growing up with it does. Having "faith" in something and knowing the subject matter of that faith, are virtually the same thing. You are not special because you think you have a connection with God, as you do not. You are not "touched" nor "blessed" by some mystical "holy spirit" that makes you an official authority on the subject, because that's exactly what your following analogy is saying.

This would be like me reading a book on building a dam and then calling myself knowledgable on the subject.

You would be knowledgeable on the subject. You would also need to have some experience in the subject as well. What do you consider your "experience" as being? Being a devote Christian? Simply being firm in your beliefs? Or do you FEEL THE HOLY SPIRIT WITH IN YOU, AMEN!?

Do you believe you have a special relationship with God?

This is not the case, even if you think it is. Your analogy is flawed. You're claiming that having knowledge about construction, does not make you a construction worker, correct. However, this is flawed to your analogy. You're saying that reading the bible and knowing it, does not make me a Christian. Which is correct, yes. But this is a choice, and not some "official role you earned."

This is the "You were never a true Christian" argument, of which of heard plenty. (Although, I was never a true Christian, you're right. But it's a fallacy none the less... The "No true Scotsman" fallacy, for example.)

Back to my point, in both cases, if a construction worker who has more experience than me, is trying to tell me that using Elmer's glue will hold a large building in place... And I know that's not the case, he is NOT right in any way.

Just like you're not right about telling me that the 3 entities that make up the trinity, is not the same being, "God." You even refer to the same being as "Godhead." You wouldn't be refering or using such a term if the 3 entities are seperate.

Again I state, you don't even know what's suppose to make you a Christian. GOD sacrificed his life, in the person of the son, Jesus, so that we may all be without sin. This is because an eternal crime against God, sin, can only be recovered by something eternal as well. Just as man is doomed to sin for eternity, the thing that repairs this is the eternal being being sacrificed for the eternal sins.

How is it possible to leave out the Father and Son, you also watch to many movies about gods outside the Bible. Read the NT and you will find the answer there.

It's very possible to leave out the "Father" and "Son," in your case for example. Both the "Son" and "Father" are "God." Again, your own knowledge of the bible is certainly lacking, and you're suppose to be the Christian here. You can't even grasp the concept that's suppose to bring you salvation!

I am a christian and do understand what salvation is about and how it's a free gift from God,

It's not free. Not only are you overlooking the fact that God in the person of Jesus died for it, but also the fact that you MUST BELIEVE THIS and FULLY UNDERSTAND THE TRINITY in order to be saved. You obviously don't even grasp the trinity, so I don't see how you can consider yourself saved. You're trying to tell me that Jesus is a COMPLETELY separate entity apart from God, and has no connection with him at all. This would make him no different from me or you. Otherwise, you're trying to tell me that Jesus is a separate god (not God) himself... which also, is not the case.

only because Christ gave His life has this become possible for me.

Well at least you got that part semi-right. However, this doesn't make it a free gift.

If you knew what I know about the living God you would not be an atheist instead you would be a believer. You can not leave out the Father, Son or Holy Spirit and have salvation, so how is it that you think that you can leave them out of the means for salvation.

When have I said that any of them could be left out? I'm saying that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are all ONE THING and APART at the same time. You're trying to tell me that they're apart, and in no way God. You're trying to tell me that the statement "God sacrificed himself, to himself" is not a logical statement, when it obviously is. God (as Jesus) made a sacrifice to Himself (As the Father). The point of the sacrifice and trinity is suppose to teach you that GOD, died for you. Your own God, which created you, died for you. If you can't even see that... Then how the heck do you call yourself a Christian? This is the basis for Christianity and the one thing you must BELIEVE in order to be forgiven of your sins.

Why do you assume that everyone who discusses something with you, somehow attributes everything to TV or movies? I've read the New Testament, trust me. I've read the Bible cover to cover. I've discussed the bible and examined it. You're using non-sequitor logic, instead of actually proving or presenting your point.

I do not assume that everyone that disagrees with me gets their info from the TV, that comment was to poke fun more than to describe your knowledge on the subject. Like I said above reading means nothing when usable knowledge is not gained. Your statement that God sacrifced Himself to Himself tells me you have little usable knowledge of the Bible.

No, the opposite is true for you. The fact that you don't realize that God sacrificed himself for your sins, means you're lacking the very foundation of what makes up the New Testament.

Instead of accusing someone of not having knowledge, and attributing it to television, movies, or other media... How about you point out where that person is wrong, and then show them how they are wrong. You have a bible setup perfectly to reference verses... However, whenever Christians are at a standpoint where they can't actually give an intelligent answer back, to make for adequate discussion, they instead go off topic, use a non-sequitor, or give a strawman argument.

Again, I state what I stated when I first posted. Both the "Son" and "Father" are both one entity, God. This IS from the New Testament. Don't tell me to go back and "read the new testament" when this is exactly where I'm taking it from. Do not reply back with, "This -Media- corrupts your understanding of Christianity." or anything similar, because that's a cop out and frankly, not even a very good point for discussion.

I've not gone off topic the discussion is on the Trinity and you seem to think that trinity means just one and that is not Bibically true.

But I never said that. YOU'RE the one who's trying to say that, not me. Are you getting your own opinions and thoughts backwards? Are you reading your own posts and thinking they're mine? When did I EVER say that the Trinity only involved one thing? That would be a RETARDED thing to say considering the very name "Trinity" is something as to describe "3."

The Trinity was involved in creation, the Trinity is not a NT idea as many would have people to believe, they are there at the beginning. I want come back with the media corrupts your understanding it's your lack of knowledge about the true living God that holds you back.

Please, oh please... Just tell me... What exactly would other forms of media have to do with my understanding of the bible? It's not like I'm sitting there discussing or reading the bible and all of a sudden go, "OH SHIT! I THOUGHT I WAS READING SONIC THE HEDGEHOG!"

Again, this is a horrible argument, and please stop using it... even if you're describing how you would "wish" to use it. Instead of using this argument, how about pointing out my flaw, and offering the correct version? (Which you failed to do the last time I asked you, by the way. You quoted it, but never answered it.)

God the Father+God the Son+God the Holyspirit= Trinity or Godhead. Three persons of God makes the Godhead, they are of the same mind and heart, this is what Jesus was saying when He told the disciples that He and the Father are one, "when you have seen Me you have seen the Father". Jesus told His disciples that He did only what the Father was doing or in simpler english I'm doing what the Father instructs. Jesus also told His disciples that He could not remain with them, for if He did the Helper could not come. He gave them specific instructions on where to go and wait for the Helper "Holyspirit". Seems to me that the true authority on God shed plenty of light on the subject some 2000 years ago. Three persons of God equals the Godhead which is the only true living God.

So, again YOU even admit and state that the 3 entities make up God. But yet you're trying to tell me the statement "God sacrificed himself, to himself" is an inaccurate statement. You're making contradictions in your own arguments against me... All in bold in your quote by the way.

We're on the topic of Christianity's "Holy Bible." So that's what I'm discussing?

No it's the Trinity.

Oh shit, I thought that was in the bible. My bad. I guess we're talking about Harry Potter.

Prove to me using scripture how God created man with flaws, the reason I ask for scriptures you yourself have said it's the only place to find things about God.

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

So, perfect beings screwed up... Doesn't seem so perfect to me.

Those perfect people were given the freewill to make choices and they made the wrong one. God told them if they ate from that tree it would bring death, He gave them a warning and they chose to ignor that warning. It was not a design flaw it was disobedience on their part. Freewill is in no way a design flaw.

If they were perfect they would not have made the wrong choice. Can you say that 99% of what God does is the "wrong choice?" No, because God is suppose to be Perfect. Thus, there are only two possible ways this can happen:

1) Everything God does, no matter how anyone else views his actions, is always perfect, even when considered imperfect. Thus, every action he takes is a "perfect action." Thus, if he decided to kill women, children, and babies (which he has) those actions are "perfect" no matter what, as he is a "perfect being."

2) God is the model for "perfection" -- And anything he does or expects, is perfection. Anything he does not like, is imperfect.

Thus, Adam and Eve weren't perfect in either cases, or else they would still be perfect, and there would be no "fall of man" or original sin.

Applying Adam and Eve to #1:

Adam and Eve, as perfect beings, both make the choice to disobey God, and eat the fruit. This action, however, does not suddenly corrupt them and make them imperfect. If they're perfect beings in the definition of example 1, then this action was a "perfect action" -- And they've done nothing wrong.

However, this is not the case, as they die spiritually and eventually die physically, thus, they are imperfect. You can't be Perfect and Imperfect at the same time, thus they must have started out Imperfect, or else they would not be able to fall victim of this trickery, and they would not suffer sin, or the ill effects considered to be the "fall of man."

Applying Adam and Eve to #2:

God creates Adam and Eve, and VIEWS them to be Perfect upon their creation. However, they eat the fruit, and God views them as imperfect. However, God created them to BE perfect, which means if they are now imperfect, they were never "perfect" to begin with. Especially when you attribute the fact that God is all knowing, and sees all. God knew this would happen, and let it happen anyway... So they were IMPERFECT before he even created them, and considered them "Perfect."

However, also, God's actions are always "Perfect." Creating Adam and Eve, was something perfect. Knowing they would fall, also means that this too, is perfect. To God, the fall of man IS PERFECT.

But if they're perfect, then that means they meet God's standards, and thus, sin is perfect, etc.

However, we know this can not be the case, since God views them, and all man, as IMPERFECT. He viewed this before he even created them. Thus, he views something "Perfect" (anything they do must be perfect thereafter) as something "Imperfect." (not to God's standards.)

Since they are not to "God's standards" -- And also, since God judges mankind for eternity, as God is eternal, then that means, they are not perfect, and never were perfect.

I've heard a lot of things about God and perfection before but nothing as illogical and unfounded as this,

Sure, and can you explain why? Instead of discussing the points or what I said? Or are you just going to simply ignore what I said... Not discuss the subject, nor point out what's wrong with what I said, or how it's wrong, and offer reasons why it's wrong... Or are you simply going to tell me that TV (which I don't watch much of by the way) is corrupting my brain, as if I'm retarded and confuse the Christian Holy Bible while I'm talking about it, with Animorphs?

maybe I should mention the TV

Oh Ffff---

"careful about what you might reveal" because this surely is the craziest thing I've ever read or heard.

And of course you're not going to point out why and discuss it with me. You'll just simply tell me that everything I'm trying to say to you is the result of other forms of media, as if I'm schizophrenic and can't keep on one subject.

Shall I list all the passages where humans end up dying? To die doesn't seem "perfect."

If you wish, please give only the book, chapter and verses that way it want take as long, also do not forget to include all the verses about the death of Jesus.

So you already know it would take too long, so I don't even NEED to list them all. If humans are perfect, then they would not die.

Yes please do and show how much you know about scripture and like I said before don't leave out all the passages about Christ. Adam and Eve were created by the perfect God and so they as the rest of creation was perfect which God said in Genesis "all is good".

Which is funny, because I offered that theory in what you quoted above and you had just told me it was the "craziest thing you've ever heard" -- Yet, you go ahead and type the same thing back to me. (Pointed out in bold.)

God did not create robots to be controlled at His every whim they were given freewill to live a life of free choice but they chose against God's will and so the immediate spiritual death and the later phyisical death became reality just as it was promised. This also brought a corruption to the entire creation.

Which is also what I said. I'm doubting you even read what I had typed. However, you've failed to tell me how I'm wrong in the fact that Adam and Eve were NEVER perfect, and the fact that we're corrupted now, means we were never perfect.

Sure, we have freewill, it's a wonderful gift. But God created something he knew would fail, giving them the choice to fail... And he also failed in his goals to create beings that are "one with God." So, since the beings he created failed so much... This means they're not perfect in the first place. They never were.

By the way, you can continue to reply to me on this subject, but be warned:
If you so much as, again, ignore any points I've made, refer to other media as being a corruption of my mind, make the assumption that I'm not talking about the bible, when I am, or you flat out refuse to even make any points, in a logical, constructive manner, I might not reply.

Meaning, if I offer a view point something, like saying:

"Some apples are red."

and you reply with "That's the silliest thing I've ever heard." or "The media has corrupted your brain" or you simply ignore the statement and tell me I'm wrong, I simply won't discuss things further with you.

I'm not sure if you're a Creationist, or a YEC, which I don't think you are, but this is a tactic I've seen from them for a long time, and I've been talking to people for many, many years.

The tactic has made me weary, and I refuse to play the "NAH NAH I CAN'T HEAR YOU HERE'S A BIBLE VERSE OR AN INCORRECT STATEMENT THAT'S AUTOMATICALLY TRUE BECAUSE IM IGNORING WHERE YOU PROVED ME WRONG" game, anymore.

This is not me being mean, I simply have seen you display this in your past 3 posts, and I believe this is something you've been doing. It needs to stop. If I'm wrong about something, tell me why, logically.

[Godscreated]

@ IceSage: I did. Can you hear me now.

[theVOID]

And the inevitable has happened once again!

The Christian, who is by now out of intelligent things to say, simply ignores every point of contention in favour of an asinine one liner, demonstrating the fundamental problem that occurs when entirely emotional beliefs are defended intellectually.

I'm sorry that you wasted so much time trying to have a decent discussion IceSage.

[IceSage]

And the inevitable has happened once again!

The Christian, who is by now out of intelligent things to say, simply ignores every point of contention in favour of an asinine one liner, demonstrating the fundamental problem that occurs when entirely emotional beliefs are defended intellectually.

Ironically after I said not to do it at the bottom of my post.

I'm sorry that you wasted so much time trying to have a decent discussion IceSage.

It's quite alright. It's not the worst conversation with someone I've ever had. The worst conversations I ever had were with VenomFangX, his forum goers, and the several sock account forum members he used.

VenomFangX: "There's no transitional fossils."
*posts several transitional fossils, and explains why they're transitional*
-YOU HAVE BEEN BANNED FROM THE FORUMS-

In one post, I actually got VenomFangX to describe evolution, without him knowing that he admitted he just described evolution.

[tackattack]

If you posted your points in a concise and organized manner I'd be happy to get to them as I have time.

[Godscreated]

Here's someone who is an atheist and is trying to tell me that I have no idea who God is and what salvation is about and how it's attained and every time I give an answer he/she tells me I'm wrong then tries to dictate how I'm to respond to his/her statements. That in my opinion is purely childish which he/she probably is. His/her arguments make no sense and are layed out in a no win proposition that's unreasonable and to all that disagree please go back and at least read the commemts made by both parties before you make your judgement. IceSage if you want to have a reasonable debate please consider what I originally posted do it through scriptures give book chapter and verse/s the only time you did I gave you a valid response that you dismissed without explanation.