Quick Poll - Do you believe in God?

[Tonus]

You are absolutely hilarious Ton.

Deliberately so, which is the difference between us.

With the capitalist system on the brink of total collapse you reckon that we are progressing?

So you pull some random thought out of thin air and decide that it means that we aren't progressing technologically and scientifically?

But let us stick to your researchers.
Oh, they date back a century ago!
Well, well Ton, Shiva date back not hundreds but few thousand years and his system is still valid these days.

Yes, over the past few centuries we have progressed in leaps and bounds. This progression accelerated considerably when we developed the scientific method and started to abandon the "make stuff up" method that was responsible for gods and spirits and souls. I wouldn't say that the "make stuff up" method is still valid these days. It does still get used, as we see examples of in this forum all the time. But it is a method that halts progress, and does so deliberately. The fact that we continue to learn and progress shows that the suggestion that we knew everything worth knowing a few thousand years ago is wrong.

As for who will have the last laugh? You're a bit late to that party, Rik. We don't have to wait to find out who is right or wrong. Your gods left town once we started asking the tough questions, and they haven't returned. You can wait around if you want, but the rest of us have stuff to do, and I'm not going to waste time waiting for your imaginary friends to knock on the door. But you go right on keeping a vigil, buddy. I guess the world needs lampposts, after all.

[Little Rik]

You are absolutely hilarious Ton.

Deliberately so, which is the difference between us.

The difference is that i may be hilarious because i believe in God without the need to go through an NDE
while i believe that you will believe only after your body die or go through an NDE. 

With the capitalist system on the brink of total collapse you reckon that we are progressing?

So you pull some random thought out of thin air and decide that it means that we aren't progressing technologically and scientifically?

Actually rather than be thin air i would call it thin bread.
Africa, the middle east and part of Asia is on the move towards Europe in order to find a piece of bread.
Latin America towards north America.
If they are lucky to get a job they may end up working 12 hours a day picking up tomatoes for few dollar a day.
Gee this is progress Ton.
And what about the N0 1 killer malaria still out of control?
And what about the queues outside the charity soup kitchens in the western countries that get longer and longer?
And what about our kids unable to find work?
Oh, yeah we progress technologically but in the meantime our kids will have to rely on their old parents pension to survive.
Yeah Ton, i hear all great news. 

But let us stick to your researchers.
Oh, they date back a century ago!
Well, well Ton, Shiva date back not hundreds but few thousand years and his system is still valid these days.

Yes, over the past few centuries we have progressed in leaps and bounds.  This progression accelerated considerably when we developed the scientific method and started to abandon the "make stuff up" method that was responsible for gods and spirits and souls.  I wouldn't say that the "make stuff up" method is still valid these days.  It does still get used, as we see examples of in this forum all the time.  But it is a method that halts progress, and does so deliberately.  The fact that we continue to learn and progress shows that the suggestion that we knew everything worth knowing a few thousand years ago is wrong.

As for who will have the last laugh?  You're a bit late to that party, Rik.  We don't have to wait to find out who is right or wrong.  Your gods left town once we started asking the tough questions, and they haven't returned.  You can wait around if you want, but the rest of us have stuff to do, and I'm not going to waste time waiting for your imaginary friends to knock on the door.  But you go right on keeping a vigil, buddy.  I guess the world needs lampposts, after all.

You never finish to amaze me Ton.
Didn't i explained you the policy of one step forward and one step backwards?
Where do you think you can get to?
Are you such an insane bloke to believe that in this way there is any kind of progress?     

[Tonus]

The difference is that i may be hilarious because i believe in God without the need to go through an NDE while i believe that you will believe only after your body die or go through an NDE. 

You're hilarious because you lack self-awareness and because you're a steaming bath of cognitive biases at work.  I'm hilarious because I point those out.  So really, you're the source of most of the hilarity.  I guess you had to be good at something.

Actually rather than be thin air i would call it thin bread.

Again, I'm wondering why you're trying to question the march of scientific and technological progress by claiming that things aren't going well around the world.  If you only focus on a distorted picture of the world, that might seem to be the case, but reality isn't on your side.  One simple example:

And what about the N0 1 killer malaria still out of control?

Malaria isn't even in the top five in poor countries.  By far the leading killer is heart disease, which is a disease that primarily strikes as we get older.  Even in those places where the quality of life is relatively low, we're living longer and healthier lives with more leisure time.  The worst places in the world to live are places where science and technology are being blocked by religion and spiritual leaders who consider things like vaccines to be the work of evil spirits.  Thanks to such nutty ideas, diseases like polio and mumps, which were all but eradicated, are making a comeback (sadly even in the USA, where non-religious nuts are the ones battling against science and technology).

In other words, we make progress anywhere that we allow science and technology to flourish.  We regress anywhere that we block those and replace them with spiritual and religious influence.  So if you want to be negative about it, you've got to point the finger of blame at people like yourself.

You never finish to amaze me Ton.
Didn't i explained you the policy of one step forward and one step backwards?
Where do you think you can get to?

If science and technology only got us one step forward and then one step backwards, humanity would be extinct today instead of the dominant species.  You have no idea what you are talking about, Rik.  You speak of not making progress while you enjoy a healthy diet, medical care, electricity and internet access on a computer with a processor core that is the size of your fingernail yet performs billions of operations every second.  The society you describe wouldn't even know how to use fire or stone tools.  Technology is more like 100 steps forward for each step backwards.  That backwards step is often helped along by "spiritual" people and ideas.

This stuff only amazes you because you've so thoroughly insulated yourself from reality.

[Little Rik]

The difference is that i may be hilarious because i believe in God without the need to go through an NDE while i believe that you will believe only after your body die or go through an NDE. 

You're hilarious because you lack self-awareness and because you're a steaming bath of cognitive biases at work.  I'm hilarious because I point those out.  So really, you're the source of most of the hilarity.  I guess you had to be good at something.

Actually rather than be thin air i would call it thin bread.

Again, I'm wondering why you're trying to question the march of scientific and technological progress by claiming that things aren't going well around the world.  If you only focus on a distorted picture of the world, that might seem to be the case, but reality isn't on your side.  One simple example:

And what about the N0 1 killer malaria still out of control?

Malaria isn't even in the top five in poor countries.  By far the leading killer is heart disease, which is a disease that primarily strikes as we get older.  Even in those places where the quality of life is relatively low, we're living longer and healthier lives with more leisure time.  The worst places in the world to live are places where science and technology are being blocked by religion and spiritual leaders who consider things like vaccines to be the work of evil spirits.  Thanks to such nutty ideas, diseases like polio and mumps, which were all but eradicated, are making a comeback (sadly even in the USA, where non-religious nuts are the ones battling against science and technology).

In other words, we make progress anywhere that we allow science and technology to flourish.  We regress anywhere that we block those and replace them with spiritual and religious influence.  So if you want to be negative about it, you've got to point the finger of blame at people like yourself.

You never finish to amaze me Ton.
Didn't i explained you the policy of one step forward and one step backwards?
Where do you think you can get to?

If science and technology only got us one step forward and then one step backwards, humanity would be extinct today instead of the dominant species.  You have no idea what you are talking about, Rik.  You speak of not making progress while you enjoy a healthy diet, medical care, electricity and internet access on a computer with a processor core that is the size of your fingernail yet performs billions of operations every second.  The society you describe wouldn't even know how to use fire or stone tools.  Technology is more like 100 steps forward for each step backwards.  That backwards step is often helped along by "spiritual" people and ideas.

This stuff only amazes you because you've so thoroughly insulated yourself from reality

That is funny Ton.
Just before the 1929 when we had the Wall street crash most people thought that the reality was their own idea of materialist reality.   
Today previous mistakes tell nothing to this new generation of people.
The same mistakes are made and therefore the same fate await us.
In those times so many people jump down tall buildings after loosing their own reality.
Today we got even more speculations and the buildings are even taller so the crash will be even more spectacular
when the next crash will happen.
As the things go i guess it will be very soon.
Well, well Ton if you live in a place with top building i am sure you will witness a lot of smashed bodied on footpath.
I hope you will not be one of them.
Ok, now let us talk about progress.
Suppose you build a vehicle with a very powerful engine and you put it inside an old body or the other way around.
A beautiful body with an old falling apart engine.
Can this be called progress?
Today we are in similar position.
The technology is making progress but all the rest is falling apart.
80% of people on earth are floating in the sewer.
18% are struggling and only 2% are doing well.
Do you really think the the technologies advances will be able to solve humanity problems?
Sorry Ton but you haven't got a clue what reality is.   

[Cyberman]

Sorry Ton but you haven't got a clue what reality is.

[Whateverist]

Sorry Ton but you haven't got a clue what reality is.

Drunk typing again, are we Simbo?  Let me have a go at answering this one while you sleep it off.

Unlike Tonus, you Ricky do have a clue.  But you've mistaken it for a fact and enshrined it at the center of your world.

[robvalue]

687 people can't be wrong. There is no God.

Glad we've settled that!

[Vincent]

I do not believe in God, but simultaneously I do not and will not profess to "know" there is no God. I just think that presently there is not enough evidence to back up his existence.

[Tonus]

That is funny Ton.
Just before the 1929 when we had the Wall street crash most people thought that the reality was their own idea of materialist reality.   
Today previous mistakes tell nothing to this new generation of people.
The same mistakes are made and therefore the same fate await us.

There is some truth to that. People tend to get trapped in cycles because they don't want to accept new knowledge or understanding, even when there are examples of what can go wrong. Financially and socially we seem to make the same mistakes out of arrogance and an unwillingness to learn from mistakes. Religion is another example, forcing us along paths that we know are going to end badly because it has ended badly every other time. Yet you sit there and talk of spirits and cars and you make up statistics in order to maintain a view of the world that is wrong.

As for me, I'll be fine. The neighborhood I am moving to doesn't have a tall building in sight for acres all around. I'm at greater risk of malaria than of height-assisted suicide. I'll see if I can't convince the "2%" to make things a bit better for that other "98%" that can't seem to keep their heads above water. Maybe if we can rid them of their silly superstitions, they can start to make some progress of their own.

[Little Rik]

That is funny Ton.
Just before the 1929 when we had the Wall street crash most people thought that the reality was their own idea of materialist reality.   
Today previous mistakes tell nothing to this new generation of people.
The same mistakes are made and therefore the same fate await us.

There is some truth to that.  People tend to get trapped in cycles because they don't want to accept new knowledge or understanding, even when there are examples of what can go wrong.  Financially and socially we seem to make the same mistakes out of arrogance and an unwillingness to learn from mistakes.

I prefer to say......out of greed rather than out of arrogance.
Greed tend to blind the intellect so it is not a question to not accept the knowledge.
It is rather a question that the greed overcome the reason. 

Religion is another example, forcing us along paths that we know are going to end badly because it has ended badly every other time.  Yet you sit there and talk of spirits and cars and you make up statistics in order to maintain a view of the world that is wrong.

1) What i have to do with religion only Santa knows.
I talk of spirits?
I didn't know Ton.
As far as i know i may talk about the spirit within not about outside spirits.
The spirit within also known as the I among those who follow spirituality.
The I or the one who exist and the one who decide to start the thought or the action
which has really nothing to do do with religious believes.
2) If i make statistic is in relation to your distorted view that technologies take the human race outside the sewer
and into a better future.

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As for me, I'll be fine.  The neighborhood I am moving to doesn't have a tall building in sight for acres all around. I'm at greater risk of malaria than of height-assisted suicide.  I'll see if I can't convince the "2%" to make things a bit better for that other "98%" that can't seem to keep their heads above water.  Maybe if we can rid them of their silly superstitions, they can start to make some progress of their own.

Ton, superstitions have some weight into keeping human race in the sewer.
No question about it but you have to consider that those who pull the strings
of the economic situation are not based into the Borneo jungle.
They are based in London, NY and other modern centers.
These people do not adore idols or various spirits or believe in superstitions.
They only adore GOD $$$.
Do me a favor Ton.
One day pop up in Brisbane so i can show you how the whole system works. 



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