Opinion on this Creed

[Jenny A]

Some of you may have heard or read this before, but I find this Creed or Poem by Steve Turner really fascinating and would like your honest opinions on the ideas he proposes in it.  This was written somewhere in 1970-1980 range:

First of all, I know satire when I hear it.  I think it's a Christian busily creating straw atheists and relativists (two categories not one).  My comments are only mine and not that of all or even a majority of atheists.  Atheism is not a philosophy.

I am against creeds.

We believe in Marx, Freud and Darwin

Marx and Freud are bunk.  Darwin had a brilliant idea that has become the back bone of medicine and the study of biology generally.  

We believe everything is OK
as long as you don't hurt anyone,

Not a bad idea.

to the best of your definition of hurt,
and to the best of your knowledge.

Well actually to my own definition of hurt and societies as well.


We believe in sex before, during, and after marriage.

Consensual sex, between adults who either aren't married, or are married to each other, yes.  Sex is good.

We believe in the therapy of sin.

Sin is an action prohibited by god.  No god, not sin.  It's a null set.

We believe that adultery is fun.

Nope.

We believe that sodomy is OK.

See the notes above about adults and consensual.

We believe that taboos are taboo.

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

We believe that everything is getting better
despite evidence to the contrary.

Well, many things are:  standard of living, medicine, tolerance.  Somethings aren't: terrorism, the environment, religious states.

The evidence must be investigated
And you can prove anything with evidence.

No you can't prove anything with evidence.  You can only prove true things.  And somethings remain in doubt.

We believe there's something in
horoscopes, UFO's and bent spoons;

I believe I'll pass on the pseudo science.  The vast majority of atheists would.

Jesus was a good man
just like Buddha, Mohammed, and ourselves.
He was a good moral teacher
although we think His good morals were bad.

Jesus may or may not have been a good man, just like Buddha and Mohammed.  Some of us are good, some of us ain't.


We believe that all religions are basically the same--

Well they're all false.  But some of them are more dangerous than others.

at least the one that we read was.
They all believe in love and goodness.
They only differ on matters of
creation, sin, heaven, hell, God, and salvation.

Not so sure they all believe in love and goodness either.


We believe that after death comes the Nothing
Because when you ask the dead what happens they say nothing.

Pretty much.


If death is not the end, if the dead have lied,
then it's compulsory heaven for all
excepting perhaps Hitler, Stalin, and Genghis Khan.

If death is not the end, then no one knows what the end is.

We believe in Masters and Johnson.

A little bit dated.  I'm not quite sure what believing in M and J would entail.  

What's selected is average.
What's average is normal.
What's normal is good.

Pass.

We believe in total disarmament.

Pass.

We believe there are direct links between warfare and bloodshed.

Obviously.

Americans should beat their guns into tractors
and the Russians would be sure to follow.

Pass.

We believe that man is essentially good.

Most people are mostly good. Some aren't.

It's only his behavior that lets him down.
This is the fault of society.
Society is the fault of conditions.
Conditions are the fault of society.

Which society where?


We believe that each man must find the truth that is right for him.

Each man much find his own meaning.  The truth, remains the truth.

Reality will adapt accordingly.
The universe will readjust.
History will alter.
We believe that there is no absolute truth
excepting the truth that there is no absolute truth.

Very much not.

We believe in the rejection of creeds,
and the flowering of individual thought.

Yes.

[Statler Waldorf]

As atheists?

Atheism = lack of belief in god. That's it, period. All other functions sold separately. No extras, and definitely no creeds.

Individual atheists will agree and disagree on things mentioned in the poem, and that's because they're individuals who often don't have anything in common save for their disbelief. It states itself 'we don't believe in creeds', but that contradicts the rest of the poem.

Personally, I'm not too big on poetry.

Where did you get that definition of atheism?  It's wrong.

[Jenny A]

As atheists?

Atheism = lack of belief in god. That's it, period. All other functions sold separately. No extras, and definitely no creeds.

Individual atheists will agree and disagree on things mentioned in the poem, and that's because they're individuals who often don't have anything in common save for their disbelief. It states itself 'we don't believe in creeds', but that contradicts the rest of the poem.

Personally, I'm not too big on poetry.

Where did you get that definition of atheism?  It's wrong.

Oh, my a Christian come to explain to atheists what atheism is.  Good luck with that.

[Spooky]

Interesting.

[Statler Waldorf]

Where did you get that definition of atheism?  It's wrong.

Oh, my a Christian come to explain to atheists what atheism is.  Good luck with that.

Words have meanings, it's not my fault that you cannot correctly define your own position.  I am aware of no philosophical reference that defines the term that way-even those written by atheists.  Get informed.

[KevinM1]

Oh, my a Christian come to explain to atheists what atheism is.  Good luck with that.

Words have meanings, it's not my fault that you cannot correctly define your own position.  I am aware of no philosophical reference that defines the term that way-even those written by atheists.  Get informed.

Let's see what the dictionary says:

Atheism:
noun
1.
the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2.
disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

We tend to use #2.  So, please, get bent.

[Statler Waldorf]

Words have meanings, it's not my fault that you cannot correctly define your own position.  I am aware of no philosophical reference that defines the term that way-even those written by atheists.  Get informed.

Let's see what the dictionary says:

Atheism:
noun
1.
the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2.
disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

We tend to use #2.  So, please, get bent.

Disbelief is not the same thing as "lack of belief", it's an actual refusal to believe.   Secondly, why did you not use an actual philosophical reference?  Could it be that they do not agree with you?

[KevinM1]

Disbelief and a lack of belief are essentially synonyms. We lack belief/exhibit disbelief because the evidence pointing to god(s) has been severely lacking.

You gotta do better than this.

[Jenny A]

Disbelief is not the same thing as "lack of belief", it's an actual refusal to believe.   Secondly, why did you not use an actual philosophical reference?  Could it be that they do not agree with you?

Atheism is a word, word dictionaries describe the meanings of words as they are currently used.  Why would I look in a specialty dictionary to define a commonly used word?

There is, unfortunately, some disagreement about the definition of atheism. It is interesting to note that most of that disagreement comes from theists - atheists themselves tend to agree on what atheism means. Christians in particular dispute the definition used by atheists and insist that atheism means something very different.
The broader, and more common, understanding of atheism among atheists is quite simply "not believing in any gods." No claims or denials are made - an atheist is just a person who does not happen to be a theist.
Sometimes this broader understanding is called "weak" or "implicit" atheism. Most good, complete dictionaries readily support this.
There also exists a narrower sort of atheism, sometimes called "strong" or "explicit" atheism. With this type, the atheist explicitly denies the existence of any gods — making a strong claim which will deserve support at some point. Some atheists do this and others may do this with regards to certain specific gods but not with others. Thus, a person may lack belief in one god, but deny the existence of another god.

http://atheism.about.com/od/definitionof...nition.htm

[Statler Waldorf]

Disbelief and a lack of belief are essentially synonyms.  We lack belief/exhibit disbelief because the evidence pointing to god(s) has been severely lacking.

You gotta do better than this.

Not according to the same dictionary you just used.  

Disbelief: noun
1. the inability or refusal to believe or to accept something as true. (Webster's). 


As I am sure you are aware, when dealing with philosophical matters we actually use philosophical reference to define our terms, not merely a dictionary.  Let's examine how actual philosophical references define the term "atheism" shall we? 

"Atheism is the position that affirms the non-existence of God. It proposes positive disbelief rather than mere suspension of belief.”- Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy

‘"Atheism’ means the negation of theism, the denial of the existence of God."  Standford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (edited by an atheist mind you)


I can find no actual reference that uses the term "lack of belief"- so if you simply lack a belief in god you're no more an atheist than the pigeon turd sitting on my balcony when I left for work this morning; after all, it lacks a belief in god as well.