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RE: Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach
July 19, 2015 at 1:58 pm
The reason you get on with some other Christians (not all, I've seen some very serious Randy squabbling with Christians) is because you have something in common.
The problem arises when you're talking to people who don't believe a word of it and refuse to say "Oh, you're so wonderful, Randy, I'll buy the car religion right now," no matter how much copying and pasting, no matter how much foot-stamping.
I know that it's difficult to get your head around, Randy, but you do really need to establish what you're saying and that isn't done by repetition/boring people. Nobody has to 'rebut' your house of cards collections of 'evidence', it isn't some kind of failure on our part that we don't take them seriously.
I really do think you need to ask yourself whether the approach you're talking is vaguely viable.
The gods did not reveal, from the beginning,
All things to us, but in the course of time
Through seeking we may learn and know things better.
These things are, we conjecture, like the truth.
But as for certain truth, no man has known it,
Nor shall he know it, neither of the gods
Nor yet of all the things of which I speak.
And even if by chance he were to utter
The final truth, he would himself not know it:
For all is but a woven web of guesses.
Xenophanes
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RE: Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach
July 19, 2015 at 1:58 pm
(This post was last modified: July 19, 2015 at 1:59 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Really Cross? Because catholics have been providing outreach services on that count for quite some time. You'd think the message would be better disseminated by now? Maybe if a pope got involv....no...no, wait...guess that didn't work on you either.
Fuck me you atheists are difficult to convince.....
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach
July 19, 2015 at 2:01 pm
(This post was last modified: July 19, 2015 at 2:01 pm by robvalue.)
All I ask for is some credible evidence that would convince a 5 year old.
Then I can finally be a maltheist. I've always wanted to try that! But I want to do it properly.
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RE: Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach
July 19, 2015 at 2:03 pm
(July 19, 2015 at 1:54 pm)Crossless1 Wrote: But you love them. Yeah, we get it. You're an ecumenical hero, Randy. Grab an altar boy on the way out. Hell, take two. You've earned it.
Randy doesn't even understand what the concept of 'Chosen People' means to Jews (we have to do more stuff and don't believe we'll get more out of it - no sitting up there, watching sinners burn below - sounds bonkers but, hey, it's a Jewish thing . . .).
The gods did not reveal, from the beginning,
All things to us, but in the course of time
Through seeking we may learn and know things better.
These things are, we conjecture, like the truth.
But as for certain truth, no man has known it,
Nor shall he know it, neither of the gods
Nor yet of all the things of which I speak.
And even if by chance he were to utter
The final truth, he would himself not know it:
For all is but a woven web of guesses.
Xenophanes
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RE: Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach
July 19, 2015 at 2:06 pm
(July 19, 2015 at 1:58 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Really Cross? Because catholics have been providing outreach services on that count for quite some time. You'd think the message would be better disseminated by now? Maybe if a pope got involv....no...no, wait...guess that didn't work on you either.
Fuck me you atheists are difficult to convince.....
Ha, I think I was editing my post while you were writing yours. Originally I was thinking only about the nuttery I used to hear in Evangelical circles with their well worn copies of Hal Lindsey in one hand and Revelation in the other. Then I thought about it a moment and was horrified that I seemed to imply that the Catholics were somehow innocent of Christian anti-Semitism. Hell, they created the brand! Have to give credit where credit is due.
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RE: Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach
July 19, 2015 at 2:27 pm
(July 19, 2015 at 1:39 pm)IATIA Wrote: (July 19, 2015 at 1:23 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: The Jews of the first and second century did not deny the crucifixion of Jesus, so we'd all love to see what you have to show us.
Did they accept him as the risen son of god?
Yes, by the thousands, actually. You raise a good point.
Acts 2:41
41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
3,000 in one day.
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RE: Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach
July 19, 2015 at 2:29 pm
(This post was last modified: July 19, 2015 at 2:33 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
-so sayeth Randy's big book of bedtime stories. I doubt that the authors could -count- that high in the first place.
"1...2....3..er, I mean 1....", it's a loop yall catholics can't seem to get passed. You'll never make it to a hundred that way, let alone 3k.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach
July 19, 2015 at 2:31 pm
(July 19, 2015 at 2:29 pm)Rhythm Wrote: -so sayeth Randy's big book of bedtime stories. I doubt that the authors could -count- that high in the first place.
Well, their mass catering did feed thousands with a few loaves and fish so they had a track record.
The gods did not reveal, from the beginning,
All things to us, but in the course of time
Through seeking we may learn and know things better.
These things are, we conjecture, like the truth.
But as for certain truth, no man has known it,
Nor shall he know it, neither of the gods
Nor yet of all the things of which I speak.
And even if by chance he were to utter
The final truth, he would himself not know it:
For all is but a woven web of guesses.
Xenophanes
Posts: 5706
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Reputation:
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RE: Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach
July 19, 2015 at 2:32 pm
(July 19, 2015 at 12:56 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: (July 19, 2015 at 10:30 am)Jenny A Wrote: Are you being willfully obtuse? There are two different sorts of evidence:
1. Witness says I saw Randy's wife shoot 13 people.
2. We have her gun which was found on her, 13 corpses with bullet wounds from that gun, her finger prints on the gun, and burn marks on her fingers.
Type one is eye witness testimony, and I wouldn't blame you a bit for not believing it without some type two evidence. Type two is the physical evidence. Present some of that along with the eye witnesses and things are looking bad for your wife.
My reports of a three hour tour would be type one evidence, so is Paul's experience, and that on the disipiles presuming of course they really had such an experience. If I came back from heaven with a new and impossible to create chemical, or better yet could set up shop as a tour guide, then we have some type 2 evidence, and things are looking rosy for heaven. But heaven would not be proof of everything in the Bible, just of heaven. Similarly physical evidence linking your wife to one crime is not proof she committed all the others.
Which brings me back to that eternal life type resurrection. You don't even have type one evidence of the eternal Jesus.
So, just to be clear: would you have any choice but to convict my wife if you saw that evidence against her? ![[Image: shrug.gif]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=forums.catholic.com%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Fshrug.gif)
In U.S. courts and other courts from the British tradition, the jury really has two options and they aren't guilty and not guilty. They are guilty and not proven. Legally, juries don't find people innocent, at best they find that the government has failed to prove them guilty.
On the strength of eyewitness testimony alone, with no corroborating physical evidence, I'd find "not proven." Your knowledge of your wife and the fact that the prosecution hadn't been able to find any physical evidence would add to my comfort in that verdict. But, add the physical evidence I listed, and it's guilty, guilty, guilty no matter what you think you know about your wife.
If there is a god, I want to believe that there is a god. If there is not a god, I want to believe that there is no god.
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RE: Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach
July 19, 2015 at 2:56 pm
(This post was last modified: July 19, 2015 at 2:58 pm by IATIA.)
(July 19, 2015 at 2:27 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: (July 19, 2015 at 1:39 pm)IATIA Wrote: Did they accept him as the risen son of god?
Yes, by the thousands, actually. You raise a good point.
Acts 2:41
41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
3,000 in one day.
Out of 5-7 million. My source is archeological records and yours is the bible? Even so ... 
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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