The Reasons why "Just Following Jesus" Doesn't work

[Redbeard The Pink]

You are mistaken about the definition for all powerful, it means that to have full and complete power. Also when you say that God can make people who both don't love Him and love Him at the same time you are committing a  logical contradiction. God can't make logical contradictions like a square circle or a rock to big for Him to lift.

 
Says you. Also, I didn't say he could create people that both love and don't love him. I said that if he were all-powerful and completely perfect, he could give everyone the choice and they would still always choose him. An all-powerful, perfect being could set up a system where free will exists and still nobody chooses wrong.

Also when you make deductions with two negative premises you are going to end at a incorrect conclusion. You are committing a formal fallacy because your pattern of reasoning is incorrect.
 
God is an incompetent designer
the system includes sin and suffering
____________________________
therefore God is malicious and not all-loving
 
God is an incompetent designer
God can't create a system without sin and suffering
_______________________________
Therefore He is not all powerful
 
Your conclusions don't make sense.

 Um...yeah, they do. If God  created a system that includes suffering, then it means one of two things: either he wants us to suffer, or he doesn't want us to suffer but had to set the system up that way despite his wishes. If he wished for us to suffer, he is not all-loving, and if he was unable to prevent it despite his own wishes, then he is not all-powerful.

Let's see...the fact that virtually all of its stories disagree broadly with mainstream science and history, the fact that virtually all of its tenets and narratives are stolen from other cultures

could you please give at least one example from each of your categories or at the very least one example that you are speaking of.

Let's see...starting with examples of scientific problems, the creation account is scientifically impossible as written, the flood story is scientifically impossible as written, the gospels are full of miracles and resurrections that are scientifically impossible, the parting of the Red Sea is scientifically impossible, the Exodus from and enslavement in Egypt seems to have never happened according to archaeology...the list goes on.

As for stuff that's stolen...many mythologies have flood stories like Noah's, strong men like Samson, dying and rising gods like Jesus, much of the early Bible treats Jehovah as a wind and/or mountain god like those found in other early faiths...

Oh gosh, was that too many examples?

Just because people can manipulate others by misinformation is not a good enough reason to say the construction of the bible is bad. Many people can take almost anything and twist it to benefit their evil desires.

There is no reason to twist the Bible if you're trying to rouse people to violence and/or atrocity. Plenty of the Bible can be used this way as written, like the parts about throwing rocks at gay people until they're dead and the parts about slaves being expected to obey their masters...speaking of which...

You again are making another mistake because of your definition of slavery. You are trying to use our modern definition of slavery and applying it to the definition of slavery at the time the Bible was written. Slavery in the Bible was for one who could not pay a debt or provide for their families. During the time of Jesus some highly skilled individuals were slaves like doctors, lawyers and politicians. As for the slavery that was in the Western countries from the 17th century up until now is explicitly forbidden in  Ex 21:16 16 “Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper’s possession. (1 Tim 1:8-10) So God does not condone that kind of slavery. Anyone who uses the bible to condone this is playing on the ignorance of their audience.

 
What verses in the Bible are talking about? Or is there a reference you are speaking of?

You're fucking kidding me, right? You didn't even try to Google this first so you wouldn't look like a fool? You're just throwing this assertion out there? Ok...here we go.

First off, if you think biblical slavery was somehow more humane/less brutal than any other form of slavery, you're just wrong. Furthermore, if you think that every slave held by biblical cultures was a debt slave, you'd be wrong again. Many of them were war-prisoners, and many of them were bought from other groups

Here is the full passage from Exodus that you're quoting:

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Laws About Slaves

21 “Now these are the rules that you shall set before them. 2 When you buy a Hebrew slave,[a] he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing. 3 If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out alone. 5 But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’ 6 then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever.

7 “When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do.8 If she does not please her master, who has designated her[b] for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has broken faith with her. 9 If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter. 10 If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, or her marital rights. 11 And if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.

12 “Whoever strikes a man so that he dies shall be put to death. 13 But if he did not lie in wait for him, but God let him fall into his hand, then I will appoint for you a place to which he may flee. 14 But if a man willfully attacks another to kill him by cunning, you shall take him from my altar, that he may die.

15 “Whoever strikes his father or his mother shall be put to death.

16 “Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death.

17 “Whoever curses[c] his father or his mother shall be put to death.

18 “When men quarrel and one strikes the other with a stone or with his fist and the man does not die but takes to his bed, 19 then if the man rises again and walks outdoors with his staff, he who struck him shall be clear; only he shall pay for the loss of his time, and shall have him thoroughly healed.

20 “When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. 21 But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.

22 “When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 But if there is harm,[d]then you shall pay life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

26 “When a man strikes the eye of his slave, male or female, and destroys it, he shall let the slave go free because of his eye. 27 If he knocks out the tooth of his slave, male or female, he shall let the slave go free because of his tooth.

28 “When an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox shall be stoned, and its flesh shall not be eaten, but the owner of the ox shall not be liable. 29 But if the ox has been accustomed to gore in the past, and its owner has been warned but has not kept it in, and it kills a man or a woman, the ox shall be stoned, and its owner also shall be put to death.30 If a ransom is imposed on him, then he shall give for the redemption of his life whatever is imposed on him. 31 If it gores a man's son or daughter, he shall be dealt with according to this same rule. 32 If the ox gores a slave, male or female, the owner shall give to their master thirty shekels[e] of silver, and the ox shall be stoned.

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I'm not gonna go through every scrap of that, but I would like to point out some highlights:

That first paragraph entails what to do with Hebrew slaves after they've "served their time," and if they started a family while enslaved then the only way to keep his family is to give up his freedom forever. There are no instructions about freeing females or children, so it's to be presumed that only grown Hebrew men could be freed from slavery by this time limit. What a kind form of slavery this is.

Right after that you have instructions for selling a daughter into sexual slavery, and what should be done with her if she isn't pleasing to the man that buys her. What a kind form of slavery this is.

Verse 20 says that if you beat your slave to death, you'll be punished...unless it takes him a day or two to die. Then you're in the clear. What a kind form of slavery this is.

Verses 26 and 27 say you have to release your slave if you knock out their eye or tooth. You're free to beat them...just don't knock out their eyes or teeth. What a kind form of slavery this is.

The verse you mentioned (verse 16) is a little vague, so we may have to get between the lines a bit to determine what they're actually talking about. Considering the tone and content of the rest of this passage, it most likely admonishes against kidnapping other people's slaves or kidnapping Hebrew citizens to be used/sold as slaves. Even if it forbids the Hebrews from kidnapping anyone to be used for slavery, it says nothing about buying from other groups slaves who have been kidnapped or seized as war prisoners.

You are contradicting yourself because you first said that he stopped speaking 2000 years ago. So if he stopped speaking that implies that He started to speak at some time.

 
What I meant is that the Bible is about 2,000 years old. Way to not understand figurative language. Go you.

God comforts us in our affliction and we can comfort others through what we have been through. Also we learn to trust totally in God.
2 Corthians 1:3 Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and the God of all comfort. 4 He comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any kind of affliction, through the comfort we ourselves receive from God. 5 For as the sufferings of Christ overflow to us, so through Christ our comfort also overflows. 6 If we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation. If we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which is experienced in your endurance of the same sufferings that we suffer. 7 And our hope for you is firm, because we know that as you share in the sufferings, so you will share in the comfort. 8 For we don’t want you to be unaware, • brothers , of our affliction that took place in • Asia : we were completely overwhelmed —beyond our strength—so that we even despaired of life. 9 Indeed, we personally had a death sentence within ourselves, so that we would not trust in ourselves but in God who raises the dead. 10 He has delivered us from such a terrible death, and He will deliver us. We have put our hope in Him that He will deliver us again 11 while you join in helping us by your prayers. Then many will give thanks on our behalf for the gift that came to us through the prayers of many.
 
I see this verse being lived out in my Grandfather who has cancer and he has a very slim chance of surviving it. I would rather he not have it but because of it this cancer our relationship, which was once strained, is now mended because of this sickness.
 
James 1:2-4 2 Consider it a great joy, my • brothers , whenever you experience various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. 4 But endurance must do its complete work, so that you may be mature and complete, lacking nothing.
 
I don't trust in God because He is going to make my life pain free but because He is worth following. He is reliable and trust worth and not matter what I am going through I am sustained by Him. He also changes me and removes, through suffering and disciple, those things that are ungodly.  

An all-powerful being could have created a system where we could still enjoy all those benefits without having to suffer for them. Again, the presence of suffering means that Gaud either wanted it to exist or couldn't design the system without it, the first rendering him malicious and the second rendering him non-omnipotent.

God doesn't send people to hell for tripping over Him or sneezing on Him. He sends them for hell for spreading lies about Him. All the false gods, anything we put above him, and even denying His existence are all lies about the character of God.

 
According to Christian doctrine it only takes one sin to land a person in hell, and it doesn't matter which sin it is. All offenses are equally grievous to Gaud. If you go to your grave without accepting Jesus and the ONLY biblical sin you committed was eating shellfish, guess what? Hell. Your Gaud is vengeful and petty in the extreme. Fuck that guy.

No, I wouldn't expect someone to pay an eternal punishment if they wronged you because you are finite.. So if you sin against a infinite God then you should pay a infinite punishment.

 
So what you're saying is that the punishment should not fit the nature of the crime, but the nature of the being it was committed against? That's fucking stupid.

Matt 7:12 “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets." You follow this rule always? He understands it more than you could even conceived especially since it is based on his character. God stepped into our shoes and lived a human life. He experienced ever hardship and didn't sin and then died so that our sins against His infinite nature would be paid for.

If you're really going to try to tell me that the Golden Rule originates with the Bible, piss off with that shit. The Golden Rule predates the Bible by at least a few hundred years, easily.

So experiencing pain determines what should and shouldn't be done?

 
Not necessarily pain, but suffering. Not all pain is actually suffering, as the BDSM community will gladly explain to you.

You still haven't pointed to any biblical account of what you spoke when God condones rape, and genocide (I already discussed slavery)

 
Yeah, and you were wrong about slavery. As for rape and genocide, this link covers a little of both: http://www.evilbible.com/Rape.htm

Because he is consciousness in the absence of matter.

So are thoughts and ideas

No, those things require brains, and brains are made of matter.

Because he is said to exist outside the material Universe and yet still be able to affect the material Universe observably.

If he made the box (universe) why couldn't he reach in and affect it?

Because he is non-material and the box is filled with material items.
 

How long have you studied this culture? Also just because they didn't know what we know doesn't make their knowledge practically non-existent. Science an technology are not the only forms of knowledge and would it be fare for future societies to judge us on the same standard that you are judging them?
What makes today's standard the correct standard to use?

 
Longer than you have, unless you have a claim to the contrary. I'm not even gonna play that game with you, honestly. That's some ad hominem bullshit.

Nothing says today's standard is correct, but it is better than biblical standards for reasons I've already mentioned.

Today's modern, western, secular morality objectively contains less suffering and more rights/equality than Bible morality, so today's morality is objectively better than Bible morality.

Please elaborate.

 
Ummm...more equal rights for women and minorities, less sexism, less slavery, less violence...are we really doing this right now?

I can say it and empathy objectively exist because we can observe them in objective reality.

So reality is not just what is material.

 
I never said it was. I said the only way to know if something is real is if there's evidence that it's real. Take down that poor straw man and stop hitting him with that stick.

Because I have the knowledge and critical thinking skills to tell when I'm looking at good evidence.

So you have never been incorrect?

In what way is that relevant? Are you saying I can't judge the validity of evidence because I'm not right about everything? By the same logic, you can't know if your Gaud is real.