*sigh* That's why I called it a "no True Scotsman" fallacy. A person can believe they are "truly saved" as fiercely as you do now, just as Redbeard and I did, and realize they are deluding themselves, and give it up. I know that your religious indoctrination includes the idea that a person who is really really Saved is a "new person", and cannot give it up, but ... what else would you expect a religion to say?
When I say that you are flawed and there is nothing wrong with you, I mean exactly that. There is no ultimate perfection; nature doesn't work that way, and neither do people. Holding up some imaginary idea of perfection that you can never quite meet (but hey, keep trying; it's your fault when you fail!) is the entire psychological ploy that keeps Christians subjugated, and doubting their own worth except through the religion, which is why it is so hard for people like you to give it up even for the moment it takes to "think outside the box".
We do not need religion to treat our fellow human beings well, to learn to overcome our animal instincts and seek a higher good, or to think we're exactly what we were meant to be-- flawed, reasoning beings, who can grow and improve, and have inherent worth without some arbitrary standard from a magic sky-man and his mammalian "son".
I reject your religion's entire notion of "sin", as I think it is clearly based on barbaric Bronze- and Iron-Age ideologies that modern understandings of human dignity and worth have far exceeded. To help you grasp what I'm getting at, I'll leave you with the words of one of my favorite sci-fi authors:
"Theology is never any help; it is searching in a dark cellar at midnight for a black cat that isn't there." -Robert A. Heinlein, JOB: A Comedy of Justice
"History does not record anywhere at any time a religion that has any rational basis. Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough to stand up to the unknown without help. But, like dandruff, most people do have a religion and spend time and money on it and seem to derive considerable pleasure from fiddling with it." - Robert Heinlein, Notebooks of Lazarus Long
"Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other 'sins' are invented nonsense. Hurting yourself is not sinful--just stupid." -Robert Heinlein, Time Enough for Love
When I say that you are flawed and there is nothing wrong with you, I mean exactly that. There is no ultimate perfection; nature doesn't work that way, and neither do people. Holding up some imaginary idea of perfection that you can never quite meet (but hey, keep trying; it's your fault when you fail!) is the entire psychological ploy that keeps Christians subjugated, and doubting their own worth except through the religion, which is why it is so hard for people like you to give it up even for the moment it takes to "think outside the box".
We do not need religion to treat our fellow human beings well, to learn to overcome our animal instincts and seek a higher good, or to think we're exactly what we were meant to be-- flawed, reasoning beings, who can grow and improve, and have inherent worth without some arbitrary standard from a magic sky-man and his mammalian "son".
I reject your religion's entire notion of "sin", as I think it is clearly based on barbaric Bronze- and Iron-Age ideologies that modern understandings of human dignity and worth have far exceeded. To help you grasp what I'm getting at, I'll leave you with the words of one of my favorite sci-fi authors:
"Theology is never any help; it is searching in a dark cellar at midnight for a black cat that isn't there." -Robert A. Heinlein, JOB: A Comedy of Justice
"History does not record anywhere at any time a religion that has any rational basis. Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough to stand up to the unknown without help. But, like dandruff, most people do have a religion and spend time and money on it and seem to derive considerable pleasure from fiddling with it." - Robert Heinlein, Notebooks of Lazarus Long
"Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other 'sins' are invented nonsense. Hurting yourself is not sinful--just stupid." -Robert Heinlein, Time Enough for Love
A Christian told me: if you were saved you cant lose your salvation. you're sealed with the Holy Ghost
I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.
I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.
