RE: Tell me...
September 25, 2015 at 9:16 pm
(This post was last modified: September 25, 2015 at 9:17 pm by TheRocketSurgeon.)
(September 25, 2015 at 4:20 pm)Godschild Wrote:(September 25, 2015 at 1:11 pm)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote:
Bizarre doctrine, such as ?
God did not bring corruption into man's life man did. Hell was first made for Lucifer and the other fallen angels, if man had not through his own self brought corruption into his life through selfish disobedience then hell would not have been a part of man's future, so hell isn't used as a gun as you call it, it is the place where all men would be without Christ. Christ is the way out of hell, He is our salvation. There is no if you do not believe in Christ God will put you into hell, hell's the default destination, so yes it is a free gift or maybe you might think of it as a ticket on a train bound for heaven.
I took you as one who was smart enough not to dive into such small excuses, yet you continue by calling hell a place of torture, these small bits are not going to get my attention other than a quick refutation of them. So, if you are going to try and use the Bible against itself please do not bring into conversations small childish arguments that most Biblical uneducated atheist do. Use what the Bible actually says. By the way my view on hell is not what the Southern Baptist profess, nor is it a watered down versions, it's actually even a worse place than a hell of never ending fire.
GC
PS I might not be able to respond to this until Monday, way to much going on here this weekend, so you can answer at your leisure if you decide to respond.
Bizarre doctrines such as:
[*] a boat that could handle every animal on earth, which somehow arrived from Australia and the Americas, etc.
[*] all of humanity coming from two people made from clay and a rib (and then, later, eight people) with no genetic bottleneck.
[*] hell being a place that God sends people because he just has to, yet he's all-powerful, and created hell.
[*] the Baptist idea that Hell is just "separation from God", despite references to the lake of fire, that other place I guess, in Revelation.
[*] women cannot teach with authority.
[*]invisible battles and demons that control the thinking of people we don't agree with, who're trying to corrupt us.
[*] thinking for myself is the one thing that God apparently really doesn't want people doing, unless it agrees with doctrine.
(That last one's not exactly Biblical, but it was definitely implied or outright stated, with references to "the world", loosely from Paul's writings, and phrases like "man's knowledge", implying that those who come to conclusions outside of the Canon must be wrong... all the marks of cult thinking.)
And generally, hell is seen as a place of eternal torment. A synonym for torment is torture. So I don't see how that is small-minded, even if you use the most liberal definition of hell as "a permanent separation from God". If you're going to sit there and try to tell me that most Christians don't see hell as a place of torture, then you're full of shit, and I have no reason to believe another word you say. Trying to pretend that using the usual definition, instead of your particular favorite definition, makes me a "Biblical uneducated atheist", is just asinine. Regardless of how we define it, hell is a place where God "sends" people (or if you prefer, allows to be sent) in an afterlife that is not necessary to exist. Why not extinguish our souls upon death, as we already think happens, as atheists, and reward the Godly (those who guess which of the thousands of religious views is correct, of course) with eternal paradise? It's very clear to me that all of these things are stories humans made up, and not revelations from an eternal, ultimate Creator. They show all the signs of human psychological manipulation-- heaven and hell is, simply, what we'd refer to as "the carrot and the stick".
Any way you want to cut it, it breaks down as morally equivalent to a rapist: "I love you. Do you love me? See, I wrote you this love letter. Oh yeah it says a lot of really nasty stuff I did in the past, but that was the old me. The new me is all about love. Remember, I'm far more powerful than you, and I can do anything I want, but I want you to choose freely what you want to do, and all I want is for you to love me like I love you. All I ask in return is just to obey my every command, and you'll be rewarded beyond your wildest dreams... oh, and if you don't, I'll torture you."
That. Is. A. Rapist.
A Christian told me: if you were saved you cant lose your salvation. you're sealed with the Holy Ghost
I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.
I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.