(September 30, 2015 at 8:08 pm)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote:(September 30, 2015 at 9:46 am)Rekeisha Wrote: Why would the disciples die for a lie? Some were crucified when they could have easily said that Jesus didn't rise from the grave. If they didn't see Jesus then what was the point?
Sweetie, none of them were executed for "refusing to say Jesus didn't rise from the grave". Not one.
They were executed as followers and promoters of a false and pernicious doctrine that claimed authority was in a Jewish man who was called "The Annointed One" (messiah), and not in the "true authority", the Roman Emperor who "rightfully" ruled the Roman Province of Judea.
Their teachings were seen as treasonous. They saw their teachings as nationalist, at least at first, and later spread the word as it had evolved to the other provinces of Rome. The authorities, according to Josephus and Tacitus (et al) felt this was a dangerous anti-authoritarian cult that needed to be wiped out. They failed, and the religion grew and changed with time.
If you'd like to try an experiment, start a religious sect (it can be Christian, or not, as you prefer) and teach the members of the group that the United States has no authority and that members can defy the laws and customs of the country.
See how long they tolerate you. Oh, it won't be as soon or as harsh as the Romans were, where defying the Emperor was seen as akin to defying the authority of the gods, and defying the Empire got you killed. But it'll happen, even here where the USA guarantees you can believe whatever you want.
Your image of Romans killing Christians for refusing to deny that Jesus rose from the dead is a comic-book story, making the Romans out to either be buffoons or demonic puppets, instead of the most efficient military the world had ever seen up to that time. The Romans were actually famous for religious tolerance, so long as you didn't have a religious view that denied the authority of Rome... then you might have to die.
Like America did with the Branch Davidians.
Well Hun, while the disciples were with Him they excepted Jesus to come in and remove the Roman authority over Israel and rule on earth. They did not expect Him to die and no just a regular mans death but a death reserved for the worst of criminals. ( psalms 22) What do you think they thought would be their fate would be since they were with Him? They were not those types of people to boldly keep up this lie. Peter wasn't even able to keep cool and denied Jesus when a servant girl confronted him about His association with Him. This is before Jesus hadn't even been crucified yet. (John 18) So you are telling me this guy who at the end of his life was willing to be crucified upside down, out of reverence for God, was doing it out of will power? Peter was done with being Jesus' disciple. He went back to fishing and Jesus had to come to him and call him back to being his disciple.
Also the tomb that Jesus was placed in was common knowledge to the leaders in Jerusalem. That is why they were able to seal the tomb and place guards at the tomb. Also Jesus' female disciples knew where the tomb was. They expected to go there and dress a dead body. If they expected Christ to be alive then why even go back to the tomb? When the disciples went to the tomb and found it empty they didn't start walking around telling people Jesus rose from the dead. It wasn't until they saw Jesus and even then they didn't go around spreading the news about Who Jesus was.
So if it was their intention to usurp Rome they would have the have a weak story. The guy who was a Jew and was crucified has all authority. We are pretty sure he rose from the grave but we don't really know. Yeah and the first one to find the empty tomb were women who's testimony is not accepted in court. Also we don't have any special training we are just some dudes who were fishermen, an tax collector (who were the worst in society). Yes of course this will work.
They were not being disruptive they were living their lives and in some cases because they were Christian they could not work and were considered the worst of society. Paul even says be at peace as much as you can with the people around you. Also obey your government authority. These were not revolutionaries just people who knew that Jesus is God and has risen from the dead.
What I have heard from you is that we don't know where Jesus body is but some guys who could have easily went back to a quite life deiced to hold on to a lie so that in the end of their lives a bunch of people believed the same lie an died like they did. Some even died by bing impaled and burned like lanterns in Nero's garden. It is one thing to believe a lie and take your own life. It is another to allow someone to throw your own child to lions and still believe that Jesus is God. I promise you if I didn't know Jesus and I could save my child's life by just denying it I would.
That is why paul says 1 cor 15:14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
