(October 2, 2015 at 12:31 pm)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote:(October 2, 2015 at 11:17 am)Rekeisha Wrote: There is also a difference from having control over your own death and allowing someone else to murder you. If there is even the slightest doubt about wither Jesus rose from the dead they would have acknowledged that. There were 11 disciples and they were all willing to die and 10 were martyred. If they didn't know for a fact that he had rose from the dead I find it hard to believe that all of them would have been willing to endure what they did. At the very least one would have belled out
Ten Christians proved you wrong,yesterday, Rekeisha. They were asked if they were Christians, and were shot if they were. They didn't know the resurrection directly, they had only indirect accounts about it, and believed. They knew they'd die if they said yes and they still said yes. People will die for what they've convinced themselves is the truth. It doesn't matter if it's actually true or not. You're assuming that the empty tomb is something they actually saw, and that the resurrection is something they actually saw, and not something that became part of the legend later and was written down as part of that legend. All they had to believe was that Jesus was the Davidic Messiah and would rise again from death to save Israel, and they would refuse to recant on pain of death. It doesn't prove the story.
(October 2, 2015 at 12:29 pm)Rekeisha Wrote: I didn't say all were crucified. I will look into the Paul thing. Still we do know he was killed for his beliefs.
Jesus was killed by the will of God and he used the Jewish leaders jealousy and the Pilate's fear of the Jews accusations.
The disciples believed that they saw Jesus after He was crucified alive and ascend into the clouds. Paul believed that He saw Jesus on the road to Damascus.
In the case of Jesus' death why would the Jewish authorities of the day not know where Jesus was buried and make sure that He stayed buried? They knew that He said he would rise from the grave so they were very interested that no one would try to make it look like He did.
The good Jews would have removed the bodied of the dead and buried them that same day. Deut 21:23 Since Jesus was crucified for political reasons He would have been allowed a tomb. Joseph of Arimathea was a part of the Sanhedrin and if He didn't allow the disciples to use His tomb why would he allow His name to be apart of that lie? He would have stated and made a point of letting everyone know He didn't give Jesus his tomb. Also the religious leaders would not have to lie and say the body was stolen. They would have stated where the tomb was that he was buried in because they would have made sure he was there.
How would the Sanhedrin have known what he said to his disciples about rising again? It wasn't a part of his public, but only his private, ministry. We only know about it because they (or someone they told the story to) wrote it down decades later.
And they had no reason to assume he'd be stolen from the grave, or rise, or anything. To them he was just another radical who claimed to be the Messiah. There were dozens of those, before and after Jesus of Nazareth.
Finally, you're again confusing what the legend of Jesus is with known fact. You're presuming that Joseph of Arimathea was a real person, was really on the Sanhedrin, and really gave his tomb for that purpose, simply because it's written in the gospels. But even if I grant that he was and he did, it doesn't prevent any number of scenarios in which the body could have been moved, or destroyed, whatever. Suppose Joseph offered the tomb for burial and the Romans said "sure!" and then dumped him in a mass grave anyway, like all the other convicted and crucified people were. Then everyone shows up after the mourning period and there's no body. GASP! He must have arisen!
A relationship with Jesus proves the resurrection because the Holy Spirit comes and indwells people only after Jesus rose from the Grave. The death is tragic and horrible but does not disprove a thing I had to say.
Again where is your documentation of Jesus being put in a mass grave? I have documentation and historical practice of allowing people convicted of political crimes being able to be buried in a non-mass tomb on my side.
Judas who betrayed Jesus could have easily told the leaders that he said he would rise from the grave when He approached to betray Jesus. Also when the people asked for a sign He said like Jonah would be in the belly of a whale for three days he would be in the ground for 3 days. This crowd included the pharisees. Also when He was teaching another crowd He said "No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." (John 10:18). He didn't keep this teaching a secret.
Also the idea of them adding elements to the bible to bluster there point of view is incorrect. There was no one controlling the text. There are multiple streams of the epistles and gospels being passed around and copied. Since not one group was controlling the text if there was an addition to the text we can see when that story would have been added. So it is an erroneous idea to thing that someone came and just changed things.
Jesus made sure that people knew that He was going to die so that when He did and rose from the grave the would believe. People are willing to die for the truth because Jesus died for us first. We aren't trying to gain entrance into heaven or have some political point made. Christian's in the past and even now don't always have a complete Bible or the Bible at all. It is God who they trust because we have received his salvation and are changed and given strength even in the face of death.
