(December 2, 2010 at 1:44 pm)Chapabel Wrote: DeistPaladin and Thor
I will be happy to respond to your question/challanges, but please list them one at a time. I find it difficult to respond to so many at one time.
As you may have noticed, my approach is to study the Bible itself. Even taking the claims of Christians about the Bible at face value, there are a lot of problems and inconsistencies.
This is a generous concession since:
1. The Bible has changed over time. The most famous example is Mark 16.
2. Pseudo epigraphy was a big problem back then. Only half of Paul's epistles are accepted as "authentic".
3. Interpolation was a big problem back then.
4. The earliest copies we have of NT parchments date to the 3rd century.
5. The whole issue with Paul seems especially fishy since he was originally the main prophet for Marcionite Christianity. Marcionites believed Jesus was a higher god, superior to and independent of the Jewish god. Paul, in the writings that come to us, does dispense with Jewish rites in favor of faith in Jesus but he strangely puts Jesus inferior to God at a number of points. This makes me suspicious that we're not getting the true writings of Paul and that Acts was a later work made to do to Paul what they did to John the Baptist.
Letting all of this go, we still have problems with the way the stories contradict each other.
Quote:1st Cor
15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; ...
15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. ...
15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
Questions:
1. What "scriptures"? The Gospels hadn't been written yet.
2. What "twelve"? Judas was dead and Thomas didn't see Jesus until 8 days later.
3. There were over 500 "brethren" (believers) who saw Jesus fly into the sky?
4. You've said, "born out of due time" means "miscarriage". What does that mean?
5. Where was the Jewish chief prosecutor, Paul, when Jesus was driving the priests so nuts they met on Passover Eve just to conspire against him?
6. Why would faithful Christians be in denial about the resurrection of Jesus only a few years after the event if it was such a matter of obvious recent reality, witnessed by hundreds who could testify what they saw? Why does Paul appeal to "scriptures" and not obvious historical reality?
Now compare to Acts
Quote:1:3 To whom (the apostles) also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Acts 1:15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)
So we can confirm that there were 120 believers after Jesus had been carried into the sky. What happened to Paul's 380+ other believers?
And why does Acts say Jesus hung around for 40 days before the ascension and yet Luke's Gospel says Jesus flew up into the sky on the day of his resurrection and reunion with the disciples? I thought you said Luke was also the author of Acts?
Quote:Gospel of Luke
24:13 And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs. ...
24:33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
24:34 Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon. ...
24:36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. ...
24:50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
24:51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
No contradictions?
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist