(October 31, 2015 at 7:00 am)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: Yes, morality is a human construct. We determine what is good and bad; that's why it varies so much from society to society.
I will agree with you that there are a variety of moral structures but I don't think that equates to morality being a human construct or subjective. The answer to 2+2 is 4 but there is an infinite amount of answers that would be wrong. Some answers would be closer to but the variety of wrong answers doesn't make the right not exist. All societies are is a group of people living together and what people believe create the rules of a society. It wasn't just people say we need to get along so lets do this, this and this. People have these question that they consciously or unconsciously ask themselves and the answers to these questions shape the society they are now. Who am I, Why am I here, What is wrong with the world and how can that be made right. From what I have listen to you believe we are evolved. There is no reason we a basically an amazing accident. So our purpose would be to squeeze as much happiness out of our life as possible. If you agree with your friend then there is nothing wrong with the world because it too has not purpose. So you really don't need to do anything about it. So the laws that you would agree with and support would be different then mine. If a woman's unborn baby is inconvenient to her life our will cause her hardship then to kill this child would not be wrong. The baby has no purpose so the mother ending that babies life is not wrong.
I answer these questions differently. I believe I am made in the image of God. So the reason I am here it to use my body and life to glorify God. I believe what is wrong with this world is me and everyone else. We are sin filled and rebellious against a good God. So the only solution is that we either are removed from this earth or God give us a new heart.
Quote:To adopt the biblical version for all mankind, and call it objective, is ludicrous to us because we can see clearly that the values of the Bible are the values of one small tribe of Bronze/Iron-Age tribal sheepherders, and that many of the "values" contained within are reprehensible by modern standards
If these values were from man then I would agree with you. There would be no need for use to follow them unless they were good for me and my family but they are not just from man. It doesn't matter how long ago it has been or what avenue God choose to send his word because it is true and relevant to every person. What is amazing about how he conveyed his truth is that he used 66 different books with 40 different writer over the span of 1000 years. When they are all read they are cohesive and consistent. This is a testament to the fact that God was direct each writer to convey his truth.
The values of the Israelite nation as outlined in Numbers, Deuteronomy, Leviticus
In these books you will find three types of laws
moral laws-everybody (ten commandments)
civil laws-nation of Israel (dietary and how one should dress)
ceremonial laws- separate as special people and point to the work of Christ (sacrifices and festivals)
The moral law is for all people and as it says in Romans 2:14-15 "For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,"
So what are the things of the law that Paul is speaking about
i am just going to look at 5 and show you that most people expect this.
12 “Honor your father and your mother.13 “You shall not murder.14 “You shall not commit adultery.15 “You shall not steal.16 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. (don't lie)
My I ask you what society in your studies have you found that do not have a law or a moral standard that says that these should not be prohibited?
In your discussion about societies and the varieties you spoke about slavery being sanctioned in the bible. As I have stated before the bible doesn't sanction the slavery that we saw in America or Europe and even now what we see in the sex trade. So lets talk about slavery.
How did a the Americans get slaves
- Africans were kidnapped by other Africans and sold to Europeans/Americans for their gain.
- they were born into slavery
- they were kidnapped as free African Americans and put into slavery
- by the will of the slave master
- if they were able to make enough money on the side, which is capped by the slave owner, to purchase their own freedom
- changing of the law
What was the status of American Slaves
- only 3/5 human
- chattel (in general use) a personal possession
- no rights under American law, so in whatever way the slave owner chooses to treat thier slave they had the right under the law to do so.
What the bible says about humans
How did a they get slaves
- there were a criminal Ex. 22:3
- they were destitute or indebt Prov. 22:7 II Kings 4:1 Isa. 50:1
- they were prisoner of war Numbers 31:26–27 Deuteronomy 20:10–11
- born into slavery Lev. 22:11
- foreigner Lev. 25:44–45
Who could be released
- Hebrew Slaves only served as slaves for 6 years and on the 7th they were released(Ex. 21:2; Deut. 15:12). Some times slaves didn't want to go so they would get there ears pierced with an awl and become a slave for their entire life. (Ex. 21:5–6; Deut. 15:16–17) Any Hebrew that was sold to a foreigner could be redeemed at once. When he/she is redeemed then he enters into the redeemer's service, which terminates with the jubilee year (Lev. 25:47–54)
- Foreigner Alien slaves were not released(Lev. 25:46)
- The Debtor, no matter the amount of the debt, must be freed on the first after the year of jubilee (Lev. 25:40). The same is true of a destitute person. In that year the freed slave regains his lands and holdings (Lev. 25:10, 13) and can go back to his/her family and ancestral home (Lev. 25:41).
- Female slaves sold into bondage by their fathers go free if their master's sons deny them their matrimonial rights (Ex. 21:11)
- Slaves must be released for grievous bodily injury caused to them: the master must let the slave go free "for his eye's sake" or "for his tooth's sake" (Ex. 21:26–27), if either be gouged out or knocked out by him.
Status of Slaves
.
- Image bearers of God so they should be treated as humans. We are all of equal value no matter race, age, inside or out side of the womb, knowledge, background, sex, clout, physical or mental capacities Gen 1:26
- Slaves were members of the master's household, and enjoyed the benefits and are expected to keep the Sabbath (the day of rest) (Ex. 20:10, 23:12; Deut. 5:14–15) and holidays (Deut. 16:11–14, 12:18). They must be circumcised (Gen. 17:12–13); partake of Passover sacrifices when circumcised (Ex. 12:44), unlike those who are just a day wager (Ex. 12:45); and could inherit the master's estate (Gen. 15:3, Prov. 17:2). Although slaves are the master's property (Lev. 22:11, etc.), they may acquire and hold property of their own; a slave who "prospers," i.e., can afford it, may redeem himself (Lev. 25:29; instances of property held by slaves are to be found in II Sam. 9:10; 16:4; 19:18, 30; I Sam. 9:8). If a slave is killed the punishment is in the same as any freeman, even if it was the master (Ex. 21:20).
- In the case of a person who is destitute and sells himself into slavery or a man who is redeemed from bondage to a stranger, no distinction may be made between a slave and a hired laborer (Lev. 25:40, 53). A master may not rule ruthlessly over these slaves (Lev. 25:43, 46, 53) nor ill-treat them (Deut. 23:17); A master may not wound him (Ex. 21:26–27) A fugitive slave must not be turned over to his master but given refuge (Deut. 23:16) The abduction of a person for sale into bondage is put to death and should not expect to be consider one of God's people (Ex. 21:16; Deut. 24:7, 1 Tim 1:10)
From these facts outlined above, you can see the different definition of "slavery" held by the Bible, and that of those who perpetuated "slavery" during the colonial era. (These people who supported slavery and owned slaves have a hard time by the scriptures to actually claim Christianity. In 1 Tim. 1:10 it explicitly speaks about those who have abducted people to be sold into bondage do not inherit the kingdom of heaven. These people were deceived by their own greed and gain. They attempted to twist the scriptures to satisfy their position and it will not be an excuse for them on the day of judgment.) Here is where we find one divide between Biblical Values, and the understanding of them. For its more than a fact of definition, it is a mind set, it is a reaction, it is "baggage" modern society holds. Think about it, why do we now stand so firmly upon the idea that slavery (as we can only know it in "modern times") is wrong? Was it an epiphany so that we could see the evil before us? Or is it because we knew all along that it was wrong?.
This is one example where the world has allowed truth to be covered up in a lie. One that has left society wondering "who is man "; "What is Man worth?" Not just our monetary value, but what value do we hold to our existence? We all are willing to say that "slavery is bad, and that holding the life and livelihood of an individual in debase subjugation is wrong because they are human. On the other hand we find society saying "life is a choice" and if a new life comes in the way of one's own personal goals then lets call them tissue. The mother is the master of her own body and my choose to treat the person in her body as less than human and in any manner she chooses. The same standards are at work here. The stronger person is taking advantage over the weaker individual. If you say slavery is wrong do you say abortion and the infanticide that is legally happening daily in America is moral acceptable?
