(December 9, 2015 at 11:13 pm)SteveII Wrote:(December 9, 2015 at 10:54 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote: Im not posting the entire Kalam argument, but its easily refuted. It doesn't matter if it establishes a first cause, because they still would have to prove that god is that cause and you cant establish that god causes anything until you prove he exists first!!!! Which is why its a presuppostional argument, god must be assumed to exist first before he can be established as the cause.
Now you've lost me. If the universe has a cause, then the argument turns to what are plausible causes. An immaterial, timeless. personal cause of sufficient power to create the entirety of the universe. You can read the arguments and disagree with the conclusions by offering alternatives. What you can't do is say God was presupposed.
Wow man, you really can't be this dense? You haven't proven god exists how could you possibly say that its a plausible explanation, I could take your argument and plug in magic alligator or universe creating turtle as the first cause, they both have the power to create the universe why are they less probable than the magic god that you made up.
