Christian argued that everything must have a creator

[jcvamp]

Who created the creator? I don't know why the ignorant keep bringing that up. No serious theologian ever proposed an argument that did not take that objection into account, bozo.

But if the line of reasoning the believer is using is 'everything must have a creator', it's a reasonable question. If the creator is exempt from the need for a creator, why, and why can't other things also be exempt? If they then say that everything in the universe requires a creator and God isn't in the universe, I'd ask why it had to be their god that was the creator. I believe the big bang created the universe and whatever caused the big bang must have also been outside of the universe. By their logic, the big bang doesn't need to have a cause (though, I believe it did), and therefore they can't use the argument, 'But what caused the big bang?'

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I don't think many of us would argue that there is probably more going on (and has been going on) then we are able to perceive. It's when people to claim to know details about this stuff, without saying how they could possibly know it, that we tend to object. It doesn't seem any different from just making things up because you want them to be that way.

As long as they state it as being their beliefs and not try to make you believe it too, I don't see why it should matter.

I partially agree with that. The only issue is that people's beliefs affect their behaviour and they often use them to justify some pretty abdominal things. This applies both to religious and non-religious beliefs. I don't think anybody's views and positions should be above scrutiny, and it's often the case that a person's religious beliefs are treated as being exempt from any kind of scrutiny purely because they're religious beliefs.

Some people have pretty innocuous beliefs. They don't set out to convert people, and they believe that they should be good to people. I don't have any issue with those people.

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The problem is imho that these proposals, insofar they are concrete enough to even be addressed, only shift the problem. Creating something is a uniquely temporal concept which we have formed based on various observations in our universe. To be able to say that this universe itself is created in its entirety, including our time itself, one needs another concept of time to which this creation refers. One can then ask the same thing of that 'divine' time, where did it come from. Most answers though are vague and merely repeat the question with more words. None I've seen scrolling through really address the issue what it could possibly mean to say that a creator god exists outside time - and precise clarification is needed or otherwise the statement is meaningless.

Agreed. And if there is a whole other level of reality that we're unaware of, such as an 'outside of the universe', it's fair for us to ask questions about it to try to understanding it. Stating that there's a level of reality that we're unaware of just raises more questions rather than answering anything.

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If we follow this line of reasoning, my parents created me, and this extends back to a point where something came about without the need for a creator. Why can't that be the formation of organic chemicals (proteins, amino acids, RNA, and DNA) from inorganic material by chemical processes that we know to exist, and have reproduced in the lab?'

Claiming that "life can be reverse engineered in a lab by intelligent beings" is not proof that these processes took place in exactly the same way without intelligent interference millions of years ago.  I would argue the contrary.  Given that we have not observed these processes taking place apart from human reproduction in a lab, if it takes intelligence now, why not conclude it took intelligence then?  This would be a more consistent conclusion.

I understand your objection, and yes, there is difference between a laboratory experiment and something occurring naturally. My point is that we know that these chemicals can give rise to organic material. I was trying to ask why he think it's more likely that a creator who isn't proven to exist is more likely than a chemical process that we know exists.

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The theist might respond this way:

Your parents created you, and your grandparents created them. Your great-grandparents created your grandparents, and so on. Keep going back in time. What created the "organic chemicals (proteins, amino acids, RNA, and DNA) from inorganic material by chemical processes that we know to exist, and have reproduced in the lab"?

They were created by a naturally occurring chemical reaction.

The Big Bang Theory states that time, space, matter, etc. all began to exist at a single point in the distant past...approximately 13 billion years ago. Why? What caused or created the big bang? Did everything suddenly come into being out of nothing? If so, why don't we observe this phenomenon happening all the time? If you were to find a watch on the sidewalk, would you assume that is simply appeared there out of nothing, or would you assume that someone dropped it there? And would you further assume that there was a watchmaker who made it to begin with?

I am willing to be honest and say that I don't know what caused the big bang. I think it's perfectly fine to admit that there are some things we don't currently understand.

You have asked, "Who created god?", but the question reveals your misunderstanding of the theist Cosmological Argument which goes something like:

1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
2. The universe began to exist.
3. Therefore, the universe has a cause.

Theists call this cause "God". And since God is eternal, He did not BEGIN to exist; therefore, He has no creator or cause.

He didn't state that everything that begins must have a cause, he simply said that everything has a cause. I followed his line of reasoning in my response.

In response to the idea God is eternal, that raises a lot of questions. My first is, how is that possible? Is it possible to answer that without saying, 'Because he's God?' If their answer is, 'I don't know', then we're at a stalemate, and I'd refer back to my question of 'Why does it have to be God and not another cause?'

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What was the cause for the existence of god, or did you miss that logical step?

Addressed and answered by athrock in post #80.

Saying that God doesn't need a creator doesn't answer the question, it creates an exception to the rule. There still has to be a reason for the exception.