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[quote='tackattack' pid='122940' dateline='1299986964']I don't recall all of the references to this but we'll just take it from here:
1- There are lots of well documented cases of brain trauma giving rise to dramatic personality, mood, emotional changes. A fact I'm not disputing and have already shown that the material brain does directly affect the mind. I never disputed that, I'm postulating that something else can also inform the mind that is insubstantial. There are also cases that cite people having experiences while in a "brain dead" state which I have cited in the other thread several places and instances. I'm not sure on the numbers but the people who survive brain death is probably a similar ratio to that reported experiences postmortem. When the sample availability is small you can't take a typical scientific sampling. However, I also cited that with about 50 studies (across various religious backgrounds) elements of NDE's were similar enough to at lead to the feasibility of the premise and certainly not delusional by default. Frankly I think it's ignoring evidence to be so dismissive and say they were all a misdiagnosis.I'm not sure what you are trying to say tack. Are you saying that the small number of such cases are positive evidence for the existence of a soul/s? If so I'm not sure how you get from 'hey I was floating above myself' to 'hey great souls exists'. The simpler explanation is of hallucination induced by a badly damaged material brain. The apparent similarity is also a so what. What would you say to 2 junkies who had a similar LSD trip? Also what about the cases of either no such experience and contrary experiences. These 'gee whizz' cases are not very impressive to me, and sorry if that is dismissive, its not aimed at you, its just not impressive. Now turn to the evidence we have lots of, in statistically signifiacnt quantities, where is the evidence for a soul? You accept brain trauma can effect an individuals personality/emotions/mood (and rightly so), but if you use NDE as evidence for souls, then from the excerpts I've read, these people clearly refer to themselves, meaning that if it is their soul, their soul contains 'them' (inc personality, mood, emotions) and isn't as amorphous as you defined it below. You can't have it both ways.
Quote:2- Ok so abstract concepts (like math) can inform and be useful and productive with regard to reality and are "real" and justifiable within their framework. What if your framework were outside of causality and were necessary logically for the abstract to exist?
What if there really were immaterial brain goblins?. You have given me no reasonable argument as to why this should be so
Quote:3-Let's just start over and I'll define what I refer to as a soul
soul –supranatural aspect of humans that is imparted by God and informs the consciousness, survives death and is used in the final judgment by God.
Firstly thank you. But it is far too amorphous to work with even as a rough sketch. What does it contain? Memories/personality/emotions; everything that makes a person. If it doesn't how does god judge it?, and why is it important that it survives death?. For example if I kill someone is it my material self or immaterial self that did it? If someones gave me a brain injury that turned me into a psycopath, is that my material self or immaterial self thats been damaged and who does god hold to account (surely not me, its not my fault!). You have already conceded that you do not have a proposal of how the material/immaterial interact, so you have to give a strong definition of a soul or at least what you believe the soul is, else we'll be grasping at straws (immaterial ones)
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3-Perhaps I should better define a soul. My intent was not to be vague. I hope this is "stronger"
soul- supranatural aspect of humans that is imparted by God and can be used by the consciousness to inform the mind; contains an object based memory relative to the individual owner; stores an active concept of the mind (both conscious and subconscious); is a storage medium in taking data for reference; survives death and is used in the final judgment by God.
1-I'm not claiming that the evidence is up to scientific empirical standards, I am claiming that it's indicative and warrants more research. You talk about statistically significant quantities but the number of people that survive an actual death experience can't really be a large pool to pull from. Of them, I cited specific cases but the link is from my work computer. You can go back to the other thread or google it yourself again. I agree with my concept that their soul contains "them"
2-I'll save this for after we discuss our definition.. it's getting to be a confusing discussion.
(March 13, 2011 at 8:13 am)theVOID Wrote:
Quote:So your definition of the "soul" is the physical structure of the brain prior to decomposition, because that's what you've got left without the electrical activity and bloodflow... That's not every, err.... Eternal... Nor is it conscious...
And seriously, "I feel there is enough support for the potential to be true" is not a statement anywhere near "I feel it is reasonable to believe that it is true", which is what you are required to make given your beliefs. Even then, I disagree with the former, there is no support for the notion of the soul, I challenge you to present a sound and valid argument for one.
When you're dying your brain starts to shut down, it floods with chemicals including DMT an extremely potent psychoactive, and stops functioning normally - You are in absolutely no state at this point to add 2 and 2 let alone report on some experience. And do you have any idea how many contradictory NDEs people have had? When any line of evidence yields such numerous contradictory conclusions you cannot rely on it for justification.
And nobody has ever come back from brain death, they've recovered from what was misdiagnosed as brain death.
4-My definition for a soul is not "the physical structure of the brain prior to decomposition" please see 3 above. If it makes you feel any better I feel it is reasonable to believe that it is true that a soul exists based on indicative evidence and usefulness
5-Yet, I presented evidence that yields similarities in the concepts. Please support "And nobody has ever come back from brain death, they've recovered from what was misdiagnosed as brain death." Are you saying all of the cases are complete misdiagnosis, even when it's a medically induced death for the purpose of brain surgery? Nor would that explain why there are any perceived experience at all when the brain is shut down, Or retention of any prior conscious concepts after the brain starts again.
(March 13, 2011 at 9:48 am)downbeatplumb Wrote:
I'm not surprised that people have been able to 'experience' when in induced comas, (I dont think they induce 'death' for brain surgery).
When the brain is starved of stimulation it tends to fill in the gaps.
6- Agreed some of the cases are probably more rationalization and people seeing what they want, but if there was even one case with verifiable evidence of knowledge while the brain was shut off, that would then force science to find the explanation for that. So far I've seen that we can simulate and OBE and hallucinations, but there hasn't been an explanation of the origin of external information with the brain in the off position. It's called a standstill operation btw and they are clinically dead. If I ever have to go for one of these I expect one of you there holding up random flashcards for me to reiterate later.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
