(May 28, 2016 at 11:20 am)Drich Wrote:(May 27, 2016 at 3:46 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: Ummm....I'm not so sure. In (2 Thes 1:7-9.) Paul seems to be saying just that. But what about Revelation 14:10? I think this is a case were all the relevant verses must be interpreted by the whole counsel of the Word. It would be very odd indeed if He didn't know the goings-on in Hell. What is clear is that people in Hell reject God's sovereignty and/or worship the Antichrist. God can still be present and eternally reaching out to people who are willfully blind to His presence and hardened themselves a to not receive His blessings.
Unless the angels Share Omni presence with God then, What is described in verse 10 is a punishment being measured out and witnessed for a time. Because it states that Jesus and the Holy Angels will witness this torture before them. Meaning as it is happening.
10 They will drink the wine of God’s anger. This wine is prepared with all its strength in the cup of God’s anger. They will be tortured with burning sulfur before the holy angels and the Lamb. 11 And the smoke from their burning pain will rise forever and ever. There will be no rest, day or night, for those who worship the beast and its idol or who wear the mark of its name.”
You also have to remember 2Thess 1: 7-9 is not a stand alone concept. All of the parables Jesus Himself taught concerning a separation from the saved to the unsaved (Wheat/Weeds, wheat/Chaff, Sheep/Goats etc..) All end with the saved being invited into where God is, and the rest cast out or separated from God. Not to meantion his direct teachings on the matter Mat 25:34-41, Luke 16:22-26 In both instances Christ describes a divide between God in Heaven and the tortured in Hell.
So in order to reconcile revelation passage with what Jesus taught I Imagine Jesus and the holy Angels are there to witness the great hord of unsaved being cast into hell and witness them being consumed by this molten sulfur. then they leave, because the only other option is Jesus and the holy angels standing watch for eternity, because the angels have never been scripturaly attributed with omni presences. There are simply where they are at the time they are there. Which means is they are to have an eternal presence in Hell they themselves would have to be in Hell.
Now that said, God being omnipotent I believe that He does indeed know what is going on in Hell, even if His presences is not there.
Good thought, at least one person is reading what i write.
“What has Athens to do with Jerusalem” –Tertullian
I’ve had some time to consider your exegesis. I think our understanding of the way in which God is “present” differs because we approach the problem from different directions. Hence the quote from Tertullian.
My general starting point is from rational reflection that turns its attention to the Word. My point is that God is the Necessary Being on which all created things depend for their preservation. As contingent beings, the damned, demons, and even Satan himself depend upon God for their on-going existence. In that sense only, God must be “present”. If God’s presence was fully withdrawn they would simply cease to exist as the annihilationists suggest.
I believe you start with the Word and reflect on the philosophical implications of specific revelation. I believe your interpretations of the relevant verses are reasonable. I have no issue with the verses you quoted. Indeed, the unfruitful branches are cut off and the chaff is burned up with unquenchable fire. May I suggest that these verses describe how the anger of the Lord and rejection of His blessings are phenomena viewed by the righteous and experienced by the damned rather than the ontological status of the damned?
