Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: July 20, 2025, 10:32 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Hypothetically, science proves free will isn't real
#68
RE: Hypothetically, science proves free will isn't real
(July 6, 2016 at 4:47 pm)ChadWooters Wrote:
(July 6, 2016 at 1:48 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: … it is not possible for reason to overcome its limits no matter what your existential commitment…there is no way to tell if we are or are not at the last layer of the onion.  It could go on further for all we know.  Your commitments don't resolve that quandary.  Reason, ultimately, cannot provide justification for itself.

Not sure if we are debating whether human beings imperfectly apply reason or whether reason itself is faulty.

Not sure what you see as the difference. I would argue that reason is both reliable and faulty. It is reliable in that it can produce consistent answers within its domain. It is faulty in that cognitive biases and irrational impulses tend to determine the conclusions of reason more than do those aspects within our conscious, reasoning apprehension.

(July 6, 2016 at 4:47 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: I also believe that first-principles are truly self-evident. You seem to be suggesting that they may only appear to be self-evident. If first principles are up for grabs then pretty much everything is. Do you disagree?

They default to self-evident because they cannot be justified, but our intuition tells us they are true. That isn't in the bailiwick of reason. They may appear self-evident, but that tells us little about their connection to reality. The assumptions behind local realism appear self evident, nonetheless the postulates of local realism are at odds with quantum mechanical experiments, so one of them is wrong. Self-evidence is no guard against error.

(July 6, 2016 at 4:47 pm)ChadWooters Wrote:
(July 6, 2016 at 1:48 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: … your argument that these paradoxes and seeming absurdities are a problem is at heart an argument from ignorance…

Paradoxes serve as indications that something is wrong with the theories that produce them. In the absence of a plausible theory, one that doesn’t resolve the paradox, more inquiry is required. But that’s not what’s happening here. These are not questions that yield to empirical findings. Some lines of reasoning are true dead ends. Moderate realism avoids paradox whereas the known alternatives do not.  It makes no sense to reject a plausible theory when there is no good reason to oppose it, just because you think someday, maybe an undiscovered alternative will appear to redeem your doubt.

From what I've seen of moderate realism, it doesn't resolve the paradoxes so much as covers them over. In that it is no less a flawed theory than alternatives. Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that your line of argument is based on ignorance, and therefore your conclusions are unreliable.
[Image: extraordinarywoo-sig.jpg]
Reply



Messages In This Thread
RE: Hypothetically, science proves free will isn't real - by Angrboda - July 6, 2016 at 5:08 pm

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Isn’t pantheism the same thing as atheism? Ferrocyanide 177 21946 January 1, 2022 at 2:36 am
Last Post: Ferrocyanide
Thumbs Down 11-Year-Old Genius Proves Hawking Wrong About God Fake Messiah 7 1616 April 16, 2019 at 8:13 pm
Last Post: Succubus
  Quantum Physics Proves God’s Existence blue grey brain 15 2846 January 2, 2019 at 11:08 pm
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  Popcorn Proves Poppy the Pop Corn God. The Valkyrie 67 15120 May 16, 2018 at 5:04 pm
Last Post: brewer
  Being Catholic isn't an ethnic thing. Joods 0 986 March 12, 2018 at 8:36 am
Last Post: Joods
  Isn't it funny... pabsta 189 70095 August 21, 2017 at 12:11 am
Last Post: Astonished
  The false self and our knowledge of it's deception proves God. Mystic 89 17554 April 14, 2017 at 1:41 pm
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
Wink The Attraction System In MEN & WOMEN Proves God Exists!!! Edward John 69 16884 December 12, 2016 at 8:34 pm
Last Post: Pat Mustard
Question Even an atheist can say "the laws came from above", isn't it? theBorg 52 12092 October 3, 2016 at 9:02 am
Last Post: I_am_not_mafia
  If free will was not real Silver 508 72710 August 22, 2016 at 2:38 am
Last Post: Gemini



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)