Disclaimer scriptures ahead- also the I and you are general and not directed at anyone in particular
That's exactly my take on Matt. and John verses quoted DP. Also nowhere in Luke 16:22-31 does it say the rich man's torment was everlasting. It simply states that he was tormented and sought relief from that place of torment. He may very well be still burning in hell or he could have been destroyed by now. Most assuredly he will be destroyed though if you look at all the verses the two of you quoted and add Mathew 10:28
"28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
Then factor in Revelations 20 :14 and Hades is thrown into the flames of hell (so they're obviously not the same thing) along with the dead from the sea.
I interpret all of that being that their is Hades (Sheol) and come judgment time there is a "second death" To which you are either destroyed or live with God. Punishment is not eternal, and you've failed to support your claims. You may be tortured till you repent in Sheol, given the opportunity to do such, or paid an equitable punishment for your sins, it's not clear in scripture. It is clear that it won't be forever though. I did all that without reading into of your scriptures, twisting them and not cherry picking any as you've all chosen to do, to fortify your bias.
@Rev- in regards to forgiveness, I thought I was clear on that. It is offered freely. If I offer you free food, room and board would you take it? Would you expect me to bring it to you or would you come to me to claim it? That's a condition, acceptance, by definition. Covenants require 2 parties, and acceptance is a default assumption, therefore there isn't such a thing as unconditional in this sense. Stipulations there are none other than acceptance. Repentance necessarily follows true acceptance and is an outward sign for humanity, but not a requirement. By grace alone we are saved, from this torment and eventual annihilation.
That's exactly my take on Matt. and John verses quoted DP. Also nowhere in Luke 16:22-31 does it say the rich man's torment was everlasting. It simply states that he was tormented and sought relief from that place of torment. He may very well be still burning in hell or he could have been destroyed by now. Most assuredly he will be destroyed though if you look at all the verses the two of you quoted and add Mathew 10:28
"28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
Then factor in Revelations 20 :14 and Hades is thrown into the flames of hell (so they're obviously not the same thing) along with the dead from the sea.
I interpret all of that being that their is Hades (Sheol) and come judgment time there is a "second death" To which you are either destroyed or live with God. Punishment is not eternal, and you've failed to support your claims. You may be tortured till you repent in Sheol, given the opportunity to do such, or paid an equitable punishment for your sins, it's not clear in scripture. It is clear that it won't be forever though. I did all that without reading into of your scriptures, twisting them and not cherry picking any as you've all chosen to do, to fortify your bias.
@Rev- in regards to forgiveness, I thought I was clear on that. It is offered freely. If I offer you free food, room and board would you take it? Would you expect me to bring it to you or would you come to me to claim it? That's a condition, acceptance, by definition. Covenants require 2 parties, and acceptance is a default assumption, therefore there isn't such a thing as unconditional in this sense. Stipulations there are none other than acceptance. Repentance necessarily follows true acceptance and is an outward sign for humanity, but not a requirement. By grace alone we are saved, from this torment and eventual annihilation.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
