RE: Evidence for Jesus Christ?
May 9, 2011 at 7:29 pm
(This post was last modified: May 9, 2011 at 8:22 pm by Dan.)
I really cannot be bothered to debate with you anymore, but I have one last thing I wish to mention. Let's drop all the supernatural talk for the moment and focus on a true hardcore fact of life, right and wrong; First of all no one can deny that there is right and wrong, good and evil, righteousness and unrighteousness. Now by all logic, because there is good and evil, there must be such a thing as pure good (where there is no evil at all) and pure evil (where there is no good). Every human being is capable of doing good and doing evil. No one is perfect and is pure in righteousness, 'everyone' has done evil and therefore 'everyone' is a sinner!
Let's say a man has rescued 100 people from a burning building, but he also stabbed someone and seriously wounded them. Is this man good because he has committed more good deeds than bad? No, because there is still some bad there no matter how little in comparison to good. It is the same with light, no matter how bright it is, unless it is pure light, there is still some dimness there. So then, no matter how little sin the man has, he still has some, this is true of everybody because I'm sure you agree that nobody is perfect, we all make mistakes and we all sin, it is the very nature of humanity. Sin, evil, unrighteousness or whatever you want to call it, is against what is good and righteous and therefore is a crime against it.
So then, is it not true that anyone who has committed any bad deeds has gone against the opposite which is good? Therefore, because righteousness is just, any bad deed must be met with justice ie. punishment. It does not matter if someone's good deeds outweigh their bad deeds by a million to one, because as I've already stated, there is still some bad there, which I'm sure you can agree.
Ok, so the man who saved 100 people and committed 1 stabbed goes to court for justice. If he is not taken to court, then there is still injustice am I not right, because he has committed evil which is against good and therefore unjust.
If the man goes to court, there will be a judge, and the judge of any crime must be completely blameless of that crime in order give justice for that crime. Assuming the man who is guilty is found to be so, he will be punished in accordance to his crime.
It is also feasible that someone else may take the blame, if it is indeed someone who was without any blame for that crime, and of course by taking the blame, he would suffer the guilty man's punishment. Could there possibly be a greater show of love than this?
What if though the man who was stabbed chooses to forgive the man who stabbed him? Would that not be just? Is this not the same for any bad deeds, that if we are forgiven for them, then it is just and right? However, if the man is not forgiven, then he must be punished or else there will be injustice. Even if someone else was to take the blame, unless the man who committed the crime was truly sorry for what he has done, there would still be injustice, because, he might just do it again! Also, is it not true that unless someone is truly sorry for something bad they have done, they cannot be forgiven and may still feel guilty? Also, unless someone acknowledges they have done wrong, then there can be no forgiveness and justice can only be met with punishment. Also, unless you accept forgiveness, then you are not forgiven, is this not always true?
So then, if a person acknowledges that they have sinned, will they not seek forgiveness? Perhaps they will feel guilty. Or perhaps they think it doesn't matter. Does it matter? If it doesn't matter then there is still injustice, but can injustice really last? Can it just be forgotten about? No, because no matter what, injustice never goes away without justice!
Ok, so we know that no one is perfect, we have all sinned, is the evidence of this not everywhere in the world? It is sin that causes all forms of, war, hate, crime, intolerance, dishonesty, greed and many more, as I've already said; it is the very nature of a human being. Without sin, there would be no evil in the world; therefore everything would be good and just. The fact is, some religion, some teachings etc can cause sin and therefore it is true that some religion does cause bad things in the world. Is it not also true if something is not true, it is false and since what is true is right, what is false must be wrong. If anyone adheres to false teachings, whether they know it or not, can they ultimately know from those teachings what is true, just, right, good? No! Only what is true can teach them these things, even if that truth includes injustice and therefore punishment, or perhaps even forgiveness.
Now what about sin as a whole? Surely there must be some form of justice for sin, for reasons I have already stated. Christianity is the only religion which truly acknowledges sin. It is in fact by definition not a religion, but a way of life. This is justified because religion includes certain rituals, ceremonies etc in which people attempt to please or perhaps cleanse themselves before the god(s) they believe in. Not all forms of so called Christianity should be called Christianity because no be a Christian, you have to follow Jesus Christ. Jesus’ strongest opposition was religion and he taught us not a religion, but a way of life. Also some religions believe that by doing more good than bad you can get to heaven. If you consider what I've already mentioned in regards to this, will the bad deeds just go away like that? Also, in every other religion apart from Christianity, people attempt to reach the god(s) they believe in, but consider this; if there is a God, surely that God must be purely righteous in order to judge. And where there is a judge, that judge must be completely blameless in order to judge. Therefore, where there is a judge, there must be justice. But if a person’s bad deeds remain unpunished or unforgiven, surely there will be punishment. Christianity is the only teaching in which God came to us (because of love), and gave us teachings of pure righteous, which are the Bible! Now if the righteous teachings in the Bible are not from God, who made them? Man? Could man who has both the capability for good and evil think up or create anything of pure good? Surely that would be illogical; surely teachings in righteousness must be 'given' by someone who is without evil. If you truly study the Bible you 'will' find that it teaches in righteousness because it does not anywhere tell the reader that they should sin!
Now if there is a God, then that God must be righteous, again for reasons I have already mentioned. Therefore that God can provide teachings in pure righteousness, because, in him, there would be no evil. The teachings of the Bible are indeed of righteousness, and even though in the Bible, God did have people killed, perhaps this just, ie. stopping those people from spreading any more evil. The fact is if there is a God, then the will of God cannot be judged, questioned etc. because it would be righteous, and only someone who is pure in righteous could understand it. Therefore, no one can understand it!
Anyway, must there not be some form of pure righteousness and pure unrighteousness? ie. God, the devil? If there is no God then there is no such thing as righteous and therefore, there is no such thing as unrighteousness/ If this is the case, there would be no justice, no punishment and everyone could just live how they wanted without any consequences. If you think there are no consequences for sin then what about death? Everyone sins, everyone dies! Is that not a consequence? Is that not justice for sin?
In no other religion is there an answer to sin ie. a way to get rid of it, but in Christianity, there is. If you do not get rid of sin through punishment or forgiveness, then it is still there. Rituals and ceremonies etc, do they remove sin? No, because they are external and sin comes from within (desires, attitudes etc). There are 2 solutions to sin; 1) punishment. 2) forgiveness. Only that which is without sin can be the judge of sin. No one can deny that we die and when we do, there are 2 possibilities. Either we pass away into nothing, or a part of our existence carries on to exist without the body. If you read any story of someone who has had a near death experience (NDE), they all have, with uncanny resemblance, very similar stories, none of which include an emptiness of nothing and ceasing to exist. The fact is, whether they are telling the truth or not, is it not true that no one can see passed death unless they die? I can't see how people can be comfortable with believing there is no life after death, and that when you die you do not exist. Can there possibly be a more dreadful fate than for your existence to cease?! How can anyone be Ok with that?!
If you are Ok with that then that is up to you. For those who can't be content with the idea of hell, is the idea really any more comforting than the end of your existence?! The fact is though, death or hell, whichever, is a punishment for sin and is 'just' for our bad deeds. However, where there is justice, there is also forgiveness! But how can we have forgiveness, must it not be from God who is righteous? If there is no God, there is no forgiveness and as I’ve already said we would not be punished by death. Unlike any other teachings, in Christianity, God came to us and gave us teachings of righteousness out of his love and because he loves us (as Christianity states); he also wants to forgive us. No other teachings in the world have any forgiveness for sins in which we can escape the eternal punishment of death / hell, and only through forgiveness can our sins no longer count against us without the punishment of death!
The fact is anyone who does not acknowledge their sins and are truly sorry, cannot be forgiven! God could just say that he forgives us and that be that, but if that was the cause would we really learn? If heaven exists, there is no evil there. If there was, it would just be like the Earth and no better as there would be good and evil, just like on the Earth. That is why God came to us, to teach us righteousness but that alone cannot cure someone of sin. Anyway who is still capable of sin cannot therefore be let into heaven, should it exist, because they would ruin it! You can only be rid of sin if you are obedient to that what is without sin. Therefore you become obedient to righteousness, which can only be obtained through faith, Romans 5:21-31 tells us this. And that faith is in righteousness, which is God and that his Son Jesus Christ died for our sins.
This is why God sent his Son Jesus (who was pure in righteousness), into the world, not only to teach us and train us in righteousness, but as a sacrifice! Someone who was without sin to take the blame of all our sins upon himself and to die in our place on the cross! This is the single greatest act of love, a righteous man to die for the unrighteous, of which, most of them hated him! Therefore the teaching in the Bible; love your enemies! God did this to demonstrate his love for us as it says in Romans 5:8 “Whilst we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” And because Jesus died for us, whoever has faith in him ‘will’ be forgiven their sins, and only through faith in Jesus (he what is righteous) can one become obedient to righteousness which are the teachings in the Bible, the commandments!
Jesus might have died on the cross but God raised him from the dead, so that just as he died for our sins, and was risen to life, we too may die to sin when we accept him as our Saviour, and be given new life through his resurrection! If he was not resurrected, there would not be new life, a life of obedience to righteousness through faith, instead obedience to sin. Therefore, his sacrifice would be in vain. This is what a Christian conversion is, you die to sin and you know in that moment your sins are forgiven, and I tell you, forgiveness is never false! Because of this forgiveness you also feel immense joy in the presence of God’s love for you and in the freedom of new life through the resurrection of Jesus, in which when the body dies, you will not die or be condemned, but be made pure in righteousness through the sacrifice and your faith in Jesus and receive the reward for your faith, eternal paradise!
You cannot get to heaven by any good works, it is because of God's grace (undeserved love) that we can, through faith in Jesus, the righteous one, the Son of the living God! This is what I and all true Christians believe. I’ve tried to explain it the best I can in so called ‘rational’ terms. I still don’t expect anyone to believe me, and I do not wish to debate with you my faith any further, so do not expect me to reply to any comments. I’ve said what I have to say, and if you choose not to believe me then that is up to you. If you do not wish to perish, then Jesus is the ‘only’ way! Because who else can be there for you not just when you die, but now and forever?!
One last thing @fr0d0 - "Christianity is perfect, Christians are not - C. S. Lewis"
This is absolutely true, we do not believe we are perfect, but the one in us is perfect. That is God's Holy Spirit that one recieves through faith in Jesus. As long as we are on the Earth, we will still sin and are imperfect and are no better than anyone else. Anyone who say's otherwise and claims to be a Christian 'is not'. We are only made perfect because of our faith when we die and come into his unprecedented glory.
Let's say a man has rescued 100 people from a burning building, but he also stabbed someone and seriously wounded them. Is this man good because he has committed more good deeds than bad? No, because there is still some bad there no matter how little in comparison to good. It is the same with light, no matter how bright it is, unless it is pure light, there is still some dimness there. So then, no matter how little sin the man has, he still has some, this is true of everybody because I'm sure you agree that nobody is perfect, we all make mistakes and we all sin, it is the very nature of humanity. Sin, evil, unrighteousness or whatever you want to call it, is against what is good and righteous and therefore is a crime against it.
So then, is it not true that anyone who has committed any bad deeds has gone against the opposite which is good? Therefore, because righteousness is just, any bad deed must be met with justice ie. punishment. It does not matter if someone's good deeds outweigh their bad deeds by a million to one, because as I've already stated, there is still some bad there, which I'm sure you can agree.
Ok, so the man who saved 100 people and committed 1 stabbed goes to court for justice. If he is not taken to court, then there is still injustice am I not right, because he has committed evil which is against good and therefore unjust.
If the man goes to court, there will be a judge, and the judge of any crime must be completely blameless of that crime in order give justice for that crime. Assuming the man who is guilty is found to be so, he will be punished in accordance to his crime.
It is also feasible that someone else may take the blame, if it is indeed someone who was without any blame for that crime, and of course by taking the blame, he would suffer the guilty man's punishment. Could there possibly be a greater show of love than this?
What if though the man who was stabbed chooses to forgive the man who stabbed him? Would that not be just? Is this not the same for any bad deeds, that if we are forgiven for them, then it is just and right? However, if the man is not forgiven, then he must be punished or else there will be injustice. Even if someone else was to take the blame, unless the man who committed the crime was truly sorry for what he has done, there would still be injustice, because, he might just do it again! Also, is it not true that unless someone is truly sorry for something bad they have done, they cannot be forgiven and may still feel guilty? Also, unless someone acknowledges they have done wrong, then there can be no forgiveness and justice can only be met with punishment. Also, unless you accept forgiveness, then you are not forgiven, is this not always true?
So then, if a person acknowledges that they have sinned, will they not seek forgiveness? Perhaps they will feel guilty. Or perhaps they think it doesn't matter. Does it matter? If it doesn't matter then there is still injustice, but can injustice really last? Can it just be forgotten about? No, because no matter what, injustice never goes away without justice!
Ok, so we know that no one is perfect, we have all sinned, is the evidence of this not everywhere in the world? It is sin that causes all forms of, war, hate, crime, intolerance, dishonesty, greed and many more, as I've already said; it is the very nature of a human being. Without sin, there would be no evil in the world; therefore everything would be good and just. The fact is, some religion, some teachings etc can cause sin and therefore it is true that some religion does cause bad things in the world. Is it not also true if something is not true, it is false and since what is true is right, what is false must be wrong. If anyone adheres to false teachings, whether they know it or not, can they ultimately know from those teachings what is true, just, right, good? No! Only what is true can teach them these things, even if that truth includes injustice and therefore punishment, or perhaps even forgiveness.
Now what about sin as a whole? Surely there must be some form of justice for sin, for reasons I have already stated. Christianity is the only religion which truly acknowledges sin. It is in fact by definition not a religion, but a way of life. This is justified because religion includes certain rituals, ceremonies etc in which people attempt to please or perhaps cleanse themselves before the god(s) they believe in. Not all forms of so called Christianity should be called Christianity because no be a Christian, you have to follow Jesus Christ. Jesus’ strongest opposition was religion and he taught us not a religion, but a way of life. Also some religions believe that by doing more good than bad you can get to heaven. If you consider what I've already mentioned in regards to this, will the bad deeds just go away like that? Also, in every other religion apart from Christianity, people attempt to reach the god(s) they believe in, but consider this; if there is a God, surely that God must be purely righteous in order to judge. And where there is a judge, that judge must be completely blameless in order to judge. Therefore, where there is a judge, there must be justice. But if a person’s bad deeds remain unpunished or unforgiven, surely there will be punishment. Christianity is the only teaching in which God came to us (because of love), and gave us teachings of pure righteous, which are the Bible! Now if the righteous teachings in the Bible are not from God, who made them? Man? Could man who has both the capability for good and evil think up or create anything of pure good? Surely that would be illogical; surely teachings in righteousness must be 'given' by someone who is without evil. If you truly study the Bible you 'will' find that it teaches in righteousness because it does not anywhere tell the reader that they should sin!
Now if there is a God, then that God must be righteous, again for reasons I have already mentioned. Therefore that God can provide teachings in pure righteousness, because, in him, there would be no evil. The teachings of the Bible are indeed of righteousness, and even though in the Bible, God did have people killed, perhaps this just, ie. stopping those people from spreading any more evil. The fact is if there is a God, then the will of God cannot be judged, questioned etc. because it would be righteous, and only someone who is pure in righteous could understand it. Therefore, no one can understand it!
Anyway, must there not be some form of pure righteousness and pure unrighteousness? ie. God, the devil? If there is no God then there is no such thing as righteous and therefore, there is no such thing as unrighteousness/ If this is the case, there would be no justice, no punishment and everyone could just live how they wanted without any consequences. If you think there are no consequences for sin then what about death? Everyone sins, everyone dies! Is that not a consequence? Is that not justice for sin?
In no other religion is there an answer to sin ie. a way to get rid of it, but in Christianity, there is. If you do not get rid of sin through punishment or forgiveness, then it is still there. Rituals and ceremonies etc, do they remove sin? No, because they are external and sin comes from within (desires, attitudes etc). There are 2 solutions to sin; 1) punishment. 2) forgiveness. Only that which is without sin can be the judge of sin. No one can deny that we die and when we do, there are 2 possibilities. Either we pass away into nothing, or a part of our existence carries on to exist without the body. If you read any story of someone who has had a near death experience (NDE), they all have, with uncanny resemblance, very similar stories, none of which include an emptiness of nothing and ceasing to exist. The fact is, whether they are telling the truth or not, is it not true that no one can see passed death unless they die? I can't see how people can be comfortable with believing there is no life after death, and that when you die you do not exist. Can there possibly be a more dreadful fate than for your existence to cease?! How can anyone be Ok with that?!
If you are Ok with that then that is up to you. For those who can't be content with the idea of hell, is the idea really any more comforting than the end of your existence?! The fact is though, death or hell, whichever, is a punishment for sin and is 'just' for our bad deeds. However, where there is justice, there is also forgiveness! But how can we have forgiveness, must it not be from God who is righteous? If there is no God, there is no forgiveness and as I’ve already said we would not be punished by death. Unlike any other teachings, in Christianity, God came to us and gave us teachings of righteousness out of his love and because he loves us (as Christianity states); he also wants to forgive us. No other teachings in the world have any forgiveness for sins in which we can escape the eternal punishment of death / hell, and only through forgiveness can our sins no longer count against us without the punishment of death!
The fact is anyone who does not acknowledge their sins and are truly sorry, cannot be forgiven! God could just say that he forgives us and that be that, but if that was the cause would we really learn? If heaven exists, there is no evil there. If there was, it would just be like the Earth and no better as there would be good and evil, just like on the Earth. That is why God came to us, to teach us righteousness but that alone cannot cure someone of sin. Anyway who is still capable of sin cannot therefore be let into heaven, should it exist, because they would ruin it! You can only be rid of sin if you are obedient to that what is without sin. Therefore you become obedient to righteousness, which can only be obtained through faith, Romans 5:21-31 tells us this. And that faith is in righteousness, which is God and that his Son Jesus Christ died for our sins.
This is why God sent his Son Jesus (who was pure in righteousness), into the world, not only to teach us and train us in righteousness, but as a sacrifice! Someone who was without sin to take the blame of all our sins upon himself and to die in our place on the cross! This is the single greatest act of love, a righteous man to die for the unrighteous, of which, most of them hated him! Therefore the teaching in the Bible; love your enemies! God did this to demonstrate his love for us as it says in Romans 5:8 “Whilst we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” And because Jesus died for us, whoever has faith in him ‘will’ be forgiven their sins, and only through faith in Jesus (he what is righteous) can one become obedient to righteousness which are the teachings in the Bible, the commandments!
Jesus might have died on the cross but God raised him from the dead, so that just as he died for our sins, and was risen to life, we too may die to sin when we accept him as our Saviour, and be given new life through his resurrection! If he was not resurrected, there would not be new life, a life of obedience to righteousness through faith, instead obedience to sin. Therefore, his sacrifice would be in vain. This is what a Christian conversion is, you die to sin and you know in that moment your sins are forgiven, and I tell you, forgiveness is never false! Because of this forgiveness you also feel immense joy in the presence of God’s love for you and in the freedom of new life through the resurrection of Jesus, in which when the body dies, you will not die or be condemned, but be made pure in righteousness through the sacrifice and your faith in Jesus and receive the reward for your faith, eternal paradise!
You cannot get to heaven by any good works, it is because of God's grace (undeserved love) that we can, through faith in Jesus, the righteous one, the Son of the living God! This is what I and all true Christians believe. I’ve tried to explain it the best I can in so called ‘rational’ terms. I still don’t expect anyone to believe me, and I do not wish to debate with you my faith any further, so do not expect me to reply to any comments. I’ve said what I have to say, and if you choose not to believe me then that is up to you. If you do not wish to perish, then Jesus is the ‘only’ way! Because who else can be there for you not just when you die, but now and forever?!
One last thing @
This is absolutely true, we do not believe we are perfect, but the one in us is perfect. That is God's Holy Spirit that one recieves through faith in Jesus. As long as we are on the Earth, we will still sin and are imperfect and are no better than anyone else. Anyone who say's otherwise and claims to be a Christian 'is not'. We are only made perfect because of our faith when we die and come into his unprecedented glory.
