RE: Can a xtian god be free?
May 9, 2011 at 8:24 pm
(This post was last modified: May 9, 2011 at 8:46 pm by Zenith.)
Now, I'll take about "Rape In The Bible"
(http://www.evilbible.com/Rape.htm)
RAPE: "1) Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead "
(Judges 21:10-24)
Before I explain...
For a clearer view of the situation, you should read Judges 19-21 (whole of it).
Now, after you do that, this is how things are explained in Judges 21.10-24:
1. The virgins were considered innocents (and, it was surely clear that they were not whores, nor slept with animals, etc.).
2. The Benjaminites (that is, the tribe of Benjamin - all descendends of Benjamin. It seems that the Jewish people were caring to have Benjaminites mary Benjaminites, and for the tribes to be separated) took as wives women of the virgins left (v.14).
3. In order for the rest of the Benjamin men to have wives and not remain lonely for the rest of their lives, and in order for the Benjamin tribe not to disappear, the Benjamin tribe had to marry women of other tribe(s). But, the problem is that these other tribes made an oath that they would not give their daughters as wives to the Benjamin men (oaths mattered back then). So the only possible way around it was to arrange things in such a way so that men of the Benjamin tribe would marry women of other tribes without the consent of the women's father (i.e. if the father of the woman allowed, it meant that he gave that man as a husband for his daughter, which he was forbidden to do due to the oath). The point is: the men took these women as wives, not as whores!
And, here there is no rape.
RAPE: "2) Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites"
(Numbers 31:7-18)
Murder? well, because it was war, it was obviously killing.
Rape? No, it was not rape.
Pillage? Well, back then you would have been an idiot not to take anything of the conquered cities. And people would have not gone to war knowing that they would die and suffer injuries and all for nothing: in a few years the enemy to recover and fight back and become a real problem for the Jewish people, again.
To understand why the people of Israel did that, you should read Numbers 31.16, 22.1-14, 25.1-4. The madians were using their women to corrupt the men of Israel:
The madianites and moab decided to beat Israel, but they could have not done that in ordinary circumstances. So, they first tried to convince Balaam - which seems to have been a prophet of God - to curse the people of Israel (because Numbers 22.6). He blessed them instead of cursing them. So another attempt to be able to beat them was to make the people of Israel separate from their God, by worshiping the madianite gods. I suppose they found out that their God forbade them to worship other gods. So they sent their women to marry men of Israel in order to make them sin against God (Number 31.16) - By marying madianite women (which were worshiping the madianite gods), they corrupted their Jewish husbands to do the same). And that thing seems to have been intended to separate the Jewish people from their God, to allow the madianites and moabits to beat Israel.
So why allow only virgin women alive? (which should have been young)
1. A "virgin" woman was still an innocent. This could not have been told for a non-virgin woman which might be a whore, might have slept with animals, etc. and now would have corrupted the Jewish people. Moreover, young virgin women were less likely to influence the Jewish people to serve the madianite gods, especially after the ones that served them have been defeated for good.
2. The "men" are those that take arms, those that fight. If the Jewish people would have taken men and boys for them, there was a high probability that these men would have still felt themselves madianites and would have turned against the people of Israel (but, the madianite virgin women that married Jewish people did not have madian children, neither before, nor after. And the offspring would have felt themselves as Jewish, not madianites).
The author of the article commented about this, saying:
But the point is: does this guy suggest that the Jewish people should have also killed the virgin women?
RAPE: "3) More Murder Rape and Pillage"
(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
the author of the article said:
Second off, in a fluffy world where everybody is insanely happy and smiling all the time saying all the time one to another how happy they feel, such a God is not fit. But in reality, we DO have (and the Jewish people of that time did have) the situation when a foreign people was waging wars with them, raiding them, permanently harassing them, and permanently representing a threat for them.
So, would God not be evil if He forbade His people to defend their children and their women and their own men from the attacks of foreign peoples? If yes, then how would God forbid them to fight against their attackers? And how do you deal with a people that is permanently attacking you? (think about 2500 years ago, not now) Not by attacking them back to cause them a good defeat to ensure that they would fear to, or would not be able to fight you and subdue you afterwards?
And, when you come with your army, if the enemy are willing to surrender, isn't it fit for them that caused trouble to pay tribute? Or, if they are willing to fight, isn't it fit to crush their power (military and economical), so they would not be able to raise their army against you tomorrow? And, as a king, you have to reward your soldiers that fought and suffered injuries in a battle where any of them or most of them could have died. So, after conquering a city, isn't it foolish to forbid them to take anything for themselves? And, what do you think, (in a context of 2500 years ago) if you send your troops to fight armed criminals (i.e. murderers, etc.) that are rich, and they fight them and kill them, is it fair to allow your troops to take their wealth, or not?
RAPE: "4) Laws of Rape"
(Deuteronomy 22:28-29)
As about the woman: in a world where women were entering the marriage as virgins, it was a shame for a woman both not to be married and not to be virgin (i.e. I guess men were more likely to marry virgin young women, rather than non-virgin young women, and to feel bad when they knew that their neighbor X has touched her before). So perhaps this was done to fix this issues.
RAPE: "5) Death to the Rape Victim"
(Deuteronomy 22:23-24)
That's not a rape victim. That's a married/betrothed woman claiming that she was raped when is caught with her adulterer.
RAPE: "6) David's Punishment - Polygamy, Rape, Baby Killing, and God's "Forgiveness""
(2 Samuel 12:11-14)
the author said:
2. I don't understand why God is blamed for taking the life of a child. Should we blame Him now that no-one lived forever so far?? (and think about the number of deaths so far, with this occasion). It is as if you would build yourself a robot, from your own materials. When you destroy it, who condemns you for that? it fully belongs to you. The same with God and His creation (by the way, consider that people do not cease their existence after death, according to the bible).
3. I'm not sure whether this guy considers God's forgiveness as "that's not a forgiveness" or "an undeserved forgiveness for what he did", but I guess it's the former. Anyway, "forgiveness" does NOT mean "forgiveness from punishment", but forgiveness for what he did. Consider this: if your child did something bad/evil, and you punish him (e.g. don't let him get out a few days or something), does that mean that you did not forgive him of the bad/evil thing he did? If you didn't forgive him of the bad/evil he did then it means that you continue to have something against him.
4. I guess polygamy is considered "evil" now, only because it's not ordinary any more. Anyway, nowadays a rich man has many "whores" (women that mean nothing to him, he has no responsibility to them, and he has them only for his sexual pleasure) while a 2500 years ago rich man had many "wives" (that bore him children that became inheritors of his wealth, he was taking care of them (i.e. of the women) for a lifetime, paying for everything they needed, while they were not supposed to work, but only be loyal and enjoy a prosperous life). I don't see why the modern version is so good and the old version is so bad, really.
RAPE: "7) Rape of Female Captives"
(Deuteronomy 21:10-14)
Yeah, it's an interesting thing to rape your own wife. Anyway, I wonder if anyone has heard about "arranged marriages" and alike - that may mean that neither the woman wishes that man, nor the man wishes that woman, but still, they're not raping each other.
RAPE: "9) Sex Slaves"
(Exodus 21:7-11)
It's funny that this guy did not complain about a man being forced to mary a woman when he was a slave - specified just above (Exodus 21.3-4). If this (Exodus 21.3-4) is not such a big problem, then I don't see why a woman being forced to marry a man when she was a slave is blatant.
RAPE: "10) God Assists Rape and Plunder"
(Zechariah 14:1-2)
Oh my... what do you imagine to have happened when evil men conquered a settlement 2500 years ago? Do you imagine they started taking care of everyone in there and treating all people nicely? And, if for the evil the Jewish people did, God allowed other evil people to do their evil on them (on the evil Jewish people), is God the evil one?
Also, what do you say: does punishing the evil man with evil (as God cannot punish him with good) make God evil?
This is the end of this series of reply.
(http://www.evilbible.com/Rape.htm)
RAPE: "1) Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead "
(Judges 21:10-24)
Quote: Obviously these women were repeatedly raped. These sick bastards killed and raped an entire town and then wanted more virgins, so they hid beside the road to kidnap and rape some more. How can anyone see this as anything but evil?Nice thing: he twists things that are there, he adds his own inventions and ideas, and then blames the original!
Before I explain...
For a clearer view of the situation, you should read Judges 19-21 (whole of it).
Now, after you do that, this is how things are explained in Judges 21.10-24:
1. The virgins were considered innocents (and, it was surely clear that they were not whores, nor slept with animals, etc.).
2. The Benjaminites (that is, the tribe of Benjamin - all descendends of Benjamin. It seems that the Jewish people were caring to have Benjaminites mary Benjaminites, and for the tribes to be separated) took as wives women of the virgins left (v.14).
3. In order for the rest of the Benjamin men to have wives and not remain lonely for the rest of their lives, and in order for the Benjamin tribe not to disappear, the Benjamin tribe had to marry women of other tribe(s). But, the problem is that these other tribes made an oath that they would not give their daughters as wives to the Benjamin men (oaths mattered back then). So the only possible way around it was to arrange things in such a way so that men of the Benjamin tribe would marry women of other tribes without the consent of the women's father (i.e. if the father of the woman allowed, it meant that he gave that man as a husband for his daughter, which he was forbidden to do due to the oath). The point is: the men took these women as wives, not as whores!
And, here there is no rape.
RAPE: "2) Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites"
(Numbers 31:7-18)
Murder? well, because it was war, it was obviously killing.
Rape? No, it was not rape.
Pillage? Well, back then you would have been an idiot not to take anything of the conquered cities. And people would have not gone to war knowing that they would die and suffer injuries and all for nothing: in a few years the enemy to recover and fight back and become a real problem for the Jewish people, again.
To understand why the people of Israel did that, you should read Numbers 31.16, 22.1-14, 25.1-4. The madians were using their women to corrupt the men of Israel:
The madianites and moab decided to beat Israel, but they could have not done that in ordinary circumstances. So, they first tried to convince Balaam - which seems to have been a prophet of God - to curse the people of Israel (because Numbers 22.6). He blessed them instead of cursing them. So another attempt to be able to beat them was to make the people of Israel separate from their God, by worshiping the madianite gods. I suppose they found out that their God forbade them to worship other gods. So they sent their women to marry men of Israel in order to make them sin against God (Number 31.16) - By marying madianite women (which were worshiping the madianite gods), they corrupted their Jewish husbands to do the same). And that thing seems to have been intended to separate the Jewish people from their God, to allow the madianites and moabits to beat Israel.
So why allow only virgin women alive? (which should have been young)
1. A "virgin" woman was still an innocent. This could not have been told for a non-virgin woman which might be a whore, might have slept with animals, etc. and now would have corrupted the Jewish people. Moreover, young virgin women were less likely to influence the Jewish people to serve the madianite gods, especially after the ones that served them have been defeated for good.
2. The "men" are those that take arms, those that fight. If the Jewish people would have taken men and boys for them, there was a high probability that these men would have still felt themselves madianites and would have turned against the people of Israel (but, the madianite virgin women that married Jewish people did not have madian children, neither before, nor after. And the offspring would have felt themselves as Jewish, not madianites).
The author of the article commented about this, saying:
Quote:Clearly Moses and God approves of rape of virgins.(When it was not mentioned that they raped them)
But the point is: does this guy suggest that the Jewish people should have also killed the virgin women?
RAPE: "3) More Murder Rape and Pillage"
(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
the author of the article said:
Quote:What kind of God approves of murder, rape, and slavery?First off, it is not rape. And the women were taking as wives, not as whores.
Second off, in a fluffy world where everybody is insanely happy and smiling all the time saying all the time one to another how happy they feel, such a God is not fit. But in reality, we DO have (and the Jewish people of that time did have) the situation when a foreign people was waging wars with them, raiding them, permanently harassing them, and permanently representing a threat for them.
So, would God not be evil if He forbade His people to defend their children and their women and their own men from the attacks of foreign peoples? If yes, then how would God forbid them to fight against their attackers? And how do you deal with a people that is permanently attacking you? (think about 2500 years ago, not now) Not by attacking them back to cause them a good defeat to ensure that they would fear to, or would not be able to fight you and subdue you afterwards?
And, when you come with your army, if the enemy are willing to surrender, isn't it fit for them that caused trouble to pay tribute? Or, if they are willing to fight, isn't it fit to crush their power (military and economical), so they would not be able to raise their army against you tomorrow? And, as a king, you have to reward your soldiers that fought and suffered injuries in a battle where any of them or most of them could have died. So, after conquering a city, isn't it foolish to forbid them to take anything for themselves? And, what do you think, (in a context of 2500 years ago) if you send your troops to fight armed criminals (i.e. murderers, etc.) that are rich, and they fight them and kill them, is it fair to allow your troops to take their wealth, or not?
RAPE: "4) Laws of Rape"
(Deuteronomy 22:28-29)
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 Wrote:28. “If a man finds a young woman who is a virgin, who is not betrothed, and he seizes her and lies with her, and they are found out,Nowadays, such a case make you imagine the rapist as a worthless man, perhaps a drunkard, disloyal, perhaps that had sex with a lot of women (which would obviously make a woman not desire such a man), perhaps a thief, etc. - and that imagination may be justified. However, according to the Jewish laws, these bad things were being punished. If he had the bad luck of raping or sleeping with a betrothed or married woman, he would have been killed. Moreover, back then, a man (if he was not rich) was really required to work a lot in order to earn his living. So it was quite a low possibility for him to be a worthless man. And marrying her meant a responsibility on his head.
29. then the man who lay with her shall give to the young woman's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife because he has humbled her; he shall not be permitted to divorce her all his days.
As about the woman: in a world where women were entering the marriage as virgins, it was a shame for a woman both not to be married and not to be virgin (i.e. I guess men were more likely to marry virgin young women, rather than non-virgin young women, and to feel bad when they knew that their neighbor X has touched her before). So perhaps this was done to fix this issues.
RAPE: "5) Death to the Rape Victim"
(Deuteronomy 22:23-24)
That's not a rape victim. That's a married/betrothed woman claiming that she was raped when is caught with her adulterer.
RAPE: "6) David's Punishment - Polygamy, Rape, Baby Killing, and God's "Forgiveness""
(2 Samuel 12:11-14)
the author said:
Quote:This has got to be one of the sickest quotes of the Bible. God himself brings the completely innocent rape victims to the rapist. What kind of pathetic loser would do something so evil? And then he kills a child! This is sick, really sick!1. Well, it is not sure that they were raped (2 Samuel 16.22 doesn't seem to suggest that they vehemently opposed the idea).
2. I don't understand why God is blamed for taking the life of a child. Should we blame Him now that no-one lived forever so far?? (and think about the number of deaths so far, with this occasion). It is as if you would build yourself a robot, from your own materials. When you destroy it, who condemns you for that? it fully belongs to you. The same with God and His creation (by the way, consider that people do not cease their existence after death, according to the bible).
3. I'm not sure whether this guy considers God's forgiveness as "that's not a forgiveness" or "an undeserved forgiveness for what he did", but I guess it's the former. Anyway, "forgiveness" does NOT mean "forgiveness from punishment", but forgiveness for what he did. Consider this: if your child did something bad/evil, and you punish him (e.g. don't let him get out a few days or something), does that mean that you did not forgive him of the bad/evil thing he did? If you didn't forgive him of the bad/evil he did then it means that you continue to have something against him.
4. I guess polygamy is considered "evil" now, only because it's not ordinary any more. Anyway, nowadays a rich man has many "whores" (women that mean nothing to him, he has no responsibility to them, and he has them only for his sexual pleasure) while a 2500 years ago rich man had many "wives" (that bore him children that became inheritors of his wealth, he was taking care of them (i.e. of the women) for a lifetime, paying for everything they needed, while they were not supposed to work, but only be loyal and enjoy a prosperous life). I don't see why the modern version is so good and the old version is so bad, really.
RAPE: "7) Rape of Female Captives"
(Deuteronomy 21:10-14)
Yeah, it's an interesting thing to rape your own wife. Anyway, I wonder if anyone has heard about "arranged marriages" and alike - that may mean that neither the woman wishes that man, nor the man wishes that woman, but still, they're not raping each other.
RAPE: "9) Sex Slaves"
(Exodus 21:7-11)
It's funny that this guy did not complain about a man being forced to mary a woman when he was a slave - specified just above (Exodus 21.3-4). If this (Exodus 21.3-4) is not such a big problem, then I don't see why a woman being forced to marry a man when she was a slave is blatant.
RAPE: "10) God Assists Rape and Plunder"
(Zechariah 14:1-2)
Oh my... what do you imagine to have happened when evil men conquered a settlement 2500 years ago? Do you imagine they started taking care of everyone in there and treating all people nicely? And, if for the evil the Jewish people did, God allowed other evil people to do their evil on them (on the evil Jewish people), is God the evil one?
Also, what do you say: does punishing the evil man with evil (as God cannot punish him with good) make God evil?
This is the end of this series of reply.
