Trinity Nonsense

[Zenith]

I'll try to be quick about this, as I am... busy right now... If you'll reply to this, please understand my further delay...

You know, in the first centuries since christianity became an official religion, the situation was like this: the Empire there was now an organized religion: priests, bishops, archbishops, etc. whom the people were indeed following blindly. So there was absolutely no need to punish a no-one-cares-for John for believing otherwise.

Er....no. Not even close to reality.

from my quick search regarding heretics & Theodosius, I found this:

"Soz 7.12 notes that, although Theodosius prescribed severe punishments in the laws against heretics, he did not order their enforcement, and as an explanation, he points out that, in fact, Theodosius did not intend to punish his subjects but to intimidate them in order to prompt their spontaneous conversion."

So, regarding heretics, I think the situation was approximatively how I told. But indeed, transforming the 'heretics' in a very ridiculous and shameful way doesn't influence the population to treat them very well.

As about pagans, as long as they weren't tortured/killed for the sole reason of being pagans, I don't think we should 'complain' too much. It seems to have been a fight against their religion (to destroy the "religion" of paganism) rather than against people (to kill people who believed in gods).

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http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/dark-age.htm

Scroll down to:

Three centuries of persecution of the pagans

or, read it all if you wish. Here's a sample:

375 The temple of Asclepius in Epidaurus, Greece, is closed down by the Christians.


380 On 27th February Christianity becomes the exclusive religion of the Roman Empire by an edict of the Emperor Flavius Theodosius, requiring that:


"All the various nations which are subject to our clemency and moderation should continue in the profession of that religion which was delivered to the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter."


The non-Christians are called “loathsome, heretics, stupid and blind”.

In another edict, Theodosius calls “insane” those that do not believe to the Christian God and outlaws all disagreement with the Church dogmas.

Ambrosius, bishop of Milan, begins the destruction of pagan temples of his area. The Christian priests lead the hungry mob against the temple of goddess Demeter in Eleusis and try to lynch the hierophants Nestorius and Priskus. The 95 year old hierophant Nestorius ends the Eleusinian Mysteries and announces "the predominance of mental darkness over the human race."


381 At the Council of Constantinople the 'Holy Spirit' is declared 'Divine' (thus sanctioning a triune god). On 2nd May, Theodosius deprives of all their rights any Christians who return to the pagan religion. Throughout the Eastern Empire the pagan temples and libraries are looted or burned down. On 21st December, Theodosius outlaws visits to Hellenic temples.

In Constantinople, the Temple of Aphrodite is turned into a brothel and the temples of the Sun and Artemis to stables.


382 “Hellelujah” (“Glory to Yahweh”) is imposed in the Christian mass.


384 Theodosius orders the Praetorian Prefect Maternus Cynegius, a dedicated Christian, to cooperate with local bishops and destroy the temples of the pagans in Northern Greece and Minor Asia.


385 to 388 Prefect Maternus Cynegius, encouraged by his fanatic wife, and bishop 'Saint' Marcellus with his gangs, scour the countryside and sack and destroy hundreds of Hellenic temples, shrines and altars. Among others they destroy the temple of Edessa, the Cabeireion of Imbros, the temple of Zeus in Apamea, the temple of Apollo in Dydima and all the temples of Palmyra.

Thousands of innocent pagans from all sides of the empire suffer martyrdom in the notorious death camps of Skythopolis.

You can't believe the pious horseshit of believers, you know.

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You know Min, everything of what you quoted seems very plausible... except the last statement (the death camps).
The thing with the brothel also sounds odd, but it seems that there were brothels allowed until 6th century, although I doubt the Emperor transformed the temple in a brothel (I'm thinking about politics, bishops around him, reputations, etc.). Anyway, a question... if you know more about the history of pagan religions... weren't there instances/rules where people fucked in a temple? (e.g. temple of a god/goddess of fertility) I remember that there were. So in that case, the transformation shouldn't sound as blatant as first appears.

I did a quick search on google to see if there is anything non-biased regarding the death camps (I mean, pure history, from a trustworthy source - trustworthy source meaning, a historical site or something, not a blog or who knows whose site) and I found none.

So, if you insist that the last line is correct (about Skythopolis), then please show me a trustworthy source (i.e. a place in a historical book or a site of history) that confirms it.

What I've found in a quick look on google, is these two:

“…..Years 385 - 388 … In the death camps of Scythopolis, thousands of innocent people undergo martyrdom: “Even from the most distant reaches of the Empire, citizens of every age and every social class were dragged there, bound in chains. And many of them died along the way, or in the prisons en route. And those who managed to survive, ended up in Scythopolis – an out-of-the-way town of Palestine, where the instruments of torture and execution had been set up”, according to Ammianus Marcellinus….” (his text is apparently the basis of the neo-Paganists’ argument).

The page quoted above seems to be of an orthodox site, and that pages brings a refutation of it. I didn't read it, so don't ask me about it, I just read a few lines about what is said.

And the other interesting thing found is:

359
In Skythopolis, Syria, christians organise the first death camps for the torture and execution of arrested Gentiles from all around the Empire.

The one above has a different date than the first one, and moreover, is before Justinian the Apostate (who lived in 361-63). So if one claims that such a thing happened before him, then Julian the Apostate should have punished the christians likewise - which he didn't (Julian's persecutions were not severe).

ok, so if we talk about a further date (i.e.385 or 388), I found the actual dates of persecutions by Emperor Theodosius as 389-391 and after (from here). Anyway, they do not sound something like "death camps" (stuff like "let's exterminate the pagans!"). Moreover, it wasn't the majority's desire to treat the pagans badly, but the Emperor (though this shouldn't matter too much, it is interesting to note: most to all decisions that were taken, were taken and imposed by Emperors, according to their own views. The Emperors also imposed their own views in ecumenical councils and stuff like that).

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Now, some 'questions' for you, as I am curios...
If you had been an Emperor/Sovereign over all world, with the supreme authority, and having the majority of the world population atheistic (e.g. 60%)... tell me that...

The non-Christians are called “loathsome, heretics, stupid and blind”.

You would never call the christians "loathsome", "stupid" or "blind".

In another edict, Theodosius calls “insane” those that do not believe to the Christian God and outlaws all disagreement with the Church dogmas.

You would not call "insane" those who do not "see" that there is no God/god.

Ambrosius, bishop of Milan, begins the destruction of pagan temples of his area. The Christian priests lead the hungry mob against the temple of goddess Demeter in Eleusis and try to lynch the hierophants Nestorius and Priskus. The 95 year old hierophant Nestorius ends the Eleusinian Mysteries and announces "the predominance of mental darkness over the human race."

Having the ultimate power and being able to bring down Christianity, you wouldn't destroy churches.

Theodosius deprives of all their rights any Christians who return to the pagan religion

You wouldn't use unfair methods to prevent atheists from converting to a religion, like christianity.

Throughout the Eastern Empire the pagan temples and libraries are looted or burned down.

You wouldn't destroy christian scriptures and other religious books.

As for this, though I doubt it is authentic,

In Constantinople, the Temple of Aphrodite is turned into a brothel and the temples of the Sun and Artemis to stables.

And that you would never turn a church into a brothel.

And after you do that, I'll consider you a better person.

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By the way, regarding things like this:

Throughout the Eastern Empire the pagan temples and libraries are looted or burned down. On 21st December, Theodosius outlaws visits to Hellenic temples.

I don't understand you, seriously: some time ago you perfectly agreed with the romans killing christians for getting into religious meetings... And now you say that christians doing likewise to pagans is blatant? By the way, they didn't have "church" buildings to gather there, back then. They gathered where they could.

The post where you wrote that was Part I of this page: http://atheistforums.org/thread-6885-page-3.html