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Atheists, what are the most convincing theist arguments you heard of?
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RE: Atheists, what are the most convincing theist arguments you heard of?
(March 12, 2017 at 8:10 pm)TheAtheologian Wrote: I am sure you have heard some arguments for theism, maybe theists are convinced that they fulfill a burden of proof. 

Despite the problems these arguments may have, which one stands out the most to you?

I commonly hear atheists claim that the teleological argument, as terrible as it may be, is the most convincing of all theist arguments.

I personally think the Kalam Cosmological Argument is the #1.

Certainly not any of the first mover arguments. The problem being that the immediate question, is then what caused the first mover? Reformulating everything that exists must have a cause as everything that begins to exist must have a cause does not help as it begs the question by creating the category of things which have always existed occupied only by the thing to be proved, thus assuming god in its proof of god. Furthermore, even if the first mover arguments managed to prove a first mover, that would not prove the existence of a being anything like the one theists like to imagine as God. Such a being might not not even be sentient let alone all powerful, interested in people, or still existing in order to either have always existed or to be a first mover.

There is also a problem with the premise that everything that begins to exist must have a cause. That is that with the possible exception of subatomic particals, we've never seen matter or energy come into existence, we've only seen matter and energy change form. A baby for example begins to exist as anot organized collection of matter, but the baby is formed of preexisting matter, so too everything else we see. So we have no reason to assume that the existence of matter or energy requires a cause only the current form matter and energy.

The teliological argument is better only in that it at least attempts to use empirical evidence, and does not attempt to define god into existence. However, as people readily see the difference between designed objects made by people, and some animals like birds or beavers and natural objects like trees for the simple reason that they do not appear designed greatly undercuts the premise. That evolution describes how a tree might have evolved is a further, but not necessary blow to the teliological argument. Essentially it is an argument from ignorance, and a showing of ignorance does not overcome that essential hurdle.

Anecdotal stories are the closest thing there is to proof of god. But they fall far short of what would be required to demonstrate god by any definition of god espoused by theists.
If there is a god, I want to believe that there is a god.  If there is not a god, I want to believe that there is no god.
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RE: Atheists, what are the most convincing theist arguments you heard of? - by Jenny A - March 13, 2017 at 1:41 pm

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