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Atheists, what are the most convincing theist arguments you heard of?
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RE: Atheists, what are the most convincing theist arguments you heard of?
(March 13, 2017 at 12:57 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:
(March 13, 2017 at 11:15 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: Bullshit.  Applying appropriate levels of skepticism to personal experience is a sign that you accept your human experience for what it is, flawed and imperfect.  Anything else is a denial of what we know about the human condition.  To be swayed by the numinous to Godly conclusions is just ignoring our greater knowledge of how such experiences fool us.  That's the real denial.

I agree that people should, as you say, apply an appropriate level of skepticism. Indeed we are only human – prone to error and living in uncertainty. And as I said, YMMV. If your need for certainty is such that you feel compelled to question everything, including your own consciousness, then that is your path and I wish you only the best. For my part, I take most things as they appear to be until shown otherwise, have good reason to suppose otherwise, or unless they affect my life enough to make me question my instincts, everyday experience, and the general consensus of history and human experience.

First off, we're talking about the existence of God here, not some ordinary proposition of everyday living. You're conflating the two, and the reason for the conflation seems abundantly apparent. You want to give the God hypothesis a pass. You're being purposely obtuse and I don't buy the act. You aren't some naive subject upon his first experience with the numinous. You know the objections, you choose to discard them on the basis of other arguments. That's being disingenuous. The reason you have given for not being skeptical is not the real reason you choose to ignore skepticism. I don't really care what the real reason is, but this "I take most things as they appear" is just a convenient line of bullshit.

(March 13, 2017 at 12:59 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:
(March 13, 2017 at 12:58 pm)Whateverist Wrote: ...this atheist is more than happy to acknowledge the presence of an ineffable otherness within.  I value its participation and inspiration at all times.  It makes the world a more complex and also satisfying place to conceptualize an otherness within.  Its happiness is key to my own.  It tends to keep alienation at bay and provide a robust answer to existential questions.

During your reflections have you ever felt the presence of Love coming from outside yourself?

I don't know what that means, but it sounds distinctly unhealthy.

(March 13, 2017 at 1:51 pm)SteveII Wrote:
(March 13, 2017 at 12:05 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: If by 'most convincing', 'most persuasive' is meant, it's possible to compare, and I find only one. It's rarely used, but the best argument for theism, and the only evidence it's conceivable to present if God is withholding verifiable miracles, is the theist. If theists had a desirable quality unique to themselves that they could display, that would, in my opinion, be the most persuasive thing that they could bring to bear. It wouldn't be effective on skeptics, but it could certainly persuade fence-sitters. It's hard though, and the vast majority can't do it. Maybe if they actually had the divine on their side, they could do better at that. Their lives are the closest things to evidence that they have, it would be something at least, if, say, we really knew Christians by their love the way Jesus is supposed to have said we will.

And that is the reason why millions of adults every year convert to Christianity (not because of the Ontological Argument). I agree heartily with the sentence I highlighted but think there are some to be found and God may place them in your life if that is what is needed to draw you near to him. 

I think in order for it to be evidence of the divine in their lives it would have to be systematic among all believers. Elsewise how do you distinguish it from the normal variation which affects all men? Perhaps those few are just outliers. It doesn't become an argument until it's consistent.
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RE: Atheists, what are the most convincing theist arguments you heard of? - by Angrboda - March 13, 2017 at 2:11 pm

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