RE: Atheists, what are the most convincing theist arguments you heard of?
March 14, 2017 at 9:32 am
(This post was last modified: March 14, 2017 at 9:35 am by Neo-Scholastic.)
(March 13, 2017 at 4:50 pm)Whateverist Wrote:(March 13, 2017 at 4:43 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: When you touch the Absolute, you know it absolutely. I'm not trying to be obscure. It's just something that isn't easy to describe and when people try it just ends up sounding trite or contradictory.
That just begs the question: how do you know whether the absolute is the ordinarily transparent apparatus of consciousness or some secret aspect of the world?
That actually sounds about right. Primal knowledge of one's self as personal existent (the apparatus of consciousness) and seeing the "world" something that actively participates with you in that experience (a secret aspect). This is pretty much what you will find in the historical literature of the faith traditions, as you can read below in a clipped quote of mine from another thread:
Quote:...I do not often refer to claims from special revelation but I think they have relevance....
“For now we see in a mirror, darkly…” – 1 Cor 13:12
"I am who I am." - Exodus 3:14
"For in Him we live and move and have our being..." - Acts 17:28
“You cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.” – Ex 33:2
“And he was transfigured before them and His face shown like the sun and His clothes became white as light.” – Matt 17:2
“…Jesus Himself came up and walked with them, but they were kept from recognizing Him…then their eyes were opened and they recognized Him….” Luke 24:15,16
And for what it is worth:
“Angels have no notion or idea of time and space…” – Emanuel Swedenborg, HH 162
“If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to Man as it is, Infinite.” – William Blake.
“The name that can be named is not the enduring and unchanging name.” – Lao-tzu
I mention these references both Scriptural and from mystical writings because all of them acknowledge a clear distinction between the nomenal and phenomenal. The categories of time and space and physicality are other than what we suppose. At the same time, the point of these sources is that dispelling these illusions of fleshly incarnation reveals a divine order that is more fundamental (or spiritual) reality. They encourage people to look beyond the veil of illusions to see reality “as it really is.”
Yes, I have had an inkling of these experiences and that is mine alone. I did not mention it with the intent to convince you that my interpretation is correct. However, these types of experiences have been reported for millennia and systematically and successfully cultivated by practitioners from various times and places across cultures. I think that is something to which skeptics should give serious attention, not as proof, but as an pointer towards something available to them when and if they find themselves dissatisfied with where skepticism has ultimately led them.
