RE: Atheists, what are the most convincing theist arguments you heard of?
March 16, 2017 at 11:27 am
(March 16, 2017 at 10:30 am)Tazzycorn Wrote:(March 13, 2017 at 8:10 pm)TheAtheologian Wrote:
I'm only dealing with your first paragraph here. The main problem with the uncaused causer and all allied arguments is that they all posit a being which violates a rule they say is universal. The uncaused causer goes, all things are created>therefore they must have a creator>go far back enough and you will find a thing that has no creator>god exists QED.
As you can see, clause three violates clause one, either god had a creator (which leads to the turtle problem) or it is not necessary for everything to have a creator (thus negating the chain as proof for god). Every argument along that strain in the monotheistic theologies has that fatal flaw.
Do you have problems with Newtons first law of motion as well?
The argument in a better form, states that everything that begins to exist, has a cause. It is not violating a rule as you infer. (note: I didn't go back in the thread, so I'm not commenting on anything specific to the conversation or what may have been presented to you.)
I actually find it interesting, that even when presented with this argument, that there are a good many, who seem to remove or not hear the "begins to exist" part in there attempted refutation. Much like the specification of an object in motion in Newton's theory, there is an important reason why "begins to exist" is in this formulation.
And you are correct, that the argument does not say that everything requires a cause; only that which begins to exist. And this alone doesn't point to God. There are other parts of the argument however, which infer from the available evidence the what qualities would be sufficient of that cause.