RE: morality is subjective and people don't have free will
May 15, 2017 at 4:06 pm
(This post was last modified: May 15, 2017 at 4:07 pm by Aroura.)
(May 15, 2017 at 4:02 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:(May 15, 2017 at 3:52 pm)Aroura Wrote: I'll field that question. The answer is simple; humans are flawed. We don't always act rationally. As a matter of fact, we rarely act rationally! lol
Our nature is such that we react first with emotions, and apply rational after the fact, in most cases. I do try to apply the rational that I should not get angry since I know people didn't chose to do, say or believe whatever made me angry, but it takes some effort, and I often fail initially, but am so far always able to eventually get past it and accept people as they are, after some work and constant reminding on my own part. I usually lose it after I've been personally stressed or judged a lot, then it can take time to get back into the "zone".
This isn't even a new concept. Some eastern philosophies that are much older than christianity use this idea of radical acceptance. Things are what they are and could not have been any other way, and that it is not only pointless, but harmful to be angry for people being the way they are. As with most good things in life, and for most people, putting this into practice takes work. It does not come naturally. Particularly when we are often taught as children to be all judgy towards ourselves and others.
Here is an old story:
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"Master, you must help me," said the visitor. "I am at my wit's end."
"What seems to be the problem?" The sage asked.
"I am having a hard time controlling my anger," the visitor said. "It's just the way people are. I see them criticizing others while totally unaware of their own faults. I do not wish to criticize them because I don't want to be like them, but it really upsets me."
"I see," said the sage. "Tell me something first: Aren't you the villager who narrowly escaped death last year?"
"Yes," the visitor nodded. "It was a terrible experience. I ventured too far into the forest and ran into a pack of hungry wolves."
"What did you do?"
"I climbed up a tree just in time before they converged on me. These wolves were big and I had no doubt they could tear me to pieces."
"So you were trapped?"
"Yes. I knew I wouldn't last long without water and food, so I waited for them to relax their guard. When I thought it was safe enough, I would jump down, make a mad dash for the next tree, and then climb up before they converged again."
"This sounds like quite an ordeal."
"Yes - altogether it lasted two days. I thought I would surely die. Luckily a group of hunters approached when I got close enough to the village. The wolves scattered and I was saved."
"I'm curious about one thing," said the sage. "During the experience, were you ever offended by the wolves?"
"What? Offended?"
"Yes. Did you feel offended, or insulted by the wolves?"
"Of course not, Master. That thought never crossed my mind."
"Why not? They wanted nothing more than to bite into you, did they not? They wanted to kill you, did they not?"
"Yes, but... that is what wolves do! They were just being themselves. It would be absurd for me to be take offense."
"Excellent! Now let's hang on to this thought while we examine your question. Criticizing others while being unaware of their own faults is something that many people do. You might even say that it is something we all do from time to time. In a sense, the ravenous wolves live in every one of us.
"When the wolves bare their fangs and close in on you, you should not just stand there. You should certainly protect yourself by getting away from them if at all possible. Similarly, when people lash out at you with venomous criticism, you should not accept it passively. You should certainly protect yourself by putting some distance between you and them if at all possible.
"The crucial point is that you can do so without feeling offended or insulted, because these people are simply being themselves. It is their nature to be critical and judgemental, so it would be absurd for us to take offense. It would be pointless for us to get angry.
"Next time the hungry wolves in human skin converge on you, remember: it's just the way people are - exactly as you said when you came in."
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It is something in our nature that we must constantly work to overcome, as we are emotional beings, not Vulcans.
Thanks Aurora. So you're saying that it indeed *doesn't* make sense and *isnt* justifiable to be angry/express anger at people for their behavior or beliefs. But that you do anyway simply because you can't help being angry and sometimes expressing the anger, though you acknowledge that doing so isn't really called for. That makes sense.
Correct, it is not justifiable, nor does it make sense to be angry at people for literally anything. But as a human, I have emotional responses that really don't make sense.
Thanks for reading and doing your best to understand. I really do appreciate it.
(May 15, 2017 at 4:05 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Oh I added one extra question to the post above!
Oh I missed it. Hang on a sec.
“Eternity is a terrible thought. I mean, where's it going to end?”
― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead
― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead