(May 24, 2017 at 11:28 am)SteveII Wrote:(May 24, 2017 at 9:48 am)emjay Wrote: So does your position boil down to [variable] shit happens in life but God's only promise is salvation? That that is the free gift that is on offer to all but there is no promise about reducing actual suffering in this life, on account of it being down to the free will of others, and that life is only a blip compared to eternity? [1] What of suffering that is not due to the free will of others, such as natural disasters and being born handicapped in some way... ie suffering that is neither the person's fault or any other person's fault? The point is, the suffering is variable, even taking into account the free will of others as one possible get-out clause, and the more someone suffers, the harder it is to accept and keep the faith. Therefore people receive the same offer but on different terms... some are never tested with real suffering or loss, whereas others experience both through no fault of their own or others. [2]
1. Yes. I would add that God promises to provide support to cope with the suffering.
2. This line of reasoning does not seem to be the case in the real world. The more suffering in the world, the faster Christianity grows. Christianity is growing at unprecedented rates in the third world even today. I am certainly not saying God causes suffering, but God seems to be more real to those in need. To supernaturally intervene ever time someone asked might not be the greatest good considering the "blip compared to eternity".
1. Okay, so he offers internal support (ie psychological support) but generally not external support (ie miracles)? Given that setup of limited intervention externally, how can you distinguish between 'God's plan' and what would have happened anyway according to the clockwork universe? That's one thing, and secondly I don't deny that those are powerful psychological offerings that have profound effects on how people perceive life... hope, positive thinking etc will always lead to a richer quality of perceived life, as will the self-esteem offering of someone who loves you unconditionally. But there is no way to prove that it is God at work and not your own mind, because the mind is more than capable of doing all those things without the notion of a God.
2. As per 1. Even if it is the case that many suffering people take to Christianity, there's no way to prove that God is not a placebo effect. Many suffering people also leave Christianity... perhaps when the placebo ceases to satisfy?
