A Question From Atheists

[The Grand Nudger]

I don't know why do you have the assumption that if there is this kind of ability in us, there should necessarily be some sort of "malfunctioning" in it.

It's not so much an assumption as the conclusion born out by the fact that anything about us that -can- fail will fail, and nothing about us so far as we can tell is immune to failure.  If this switch were, it would be yet another special attribute of a special case.

I'm trying to approach the subject with a modicum of intellectual integrity.

Anyways, even if that's true many psychological disorders can be as a result of this malfunction. In fact there is a disorder called "depersonalization disorder" which refers to the lack of "I" in the patient. The patient (The universe in fact) however will not experience any "depersonalization" that's how his(her) I reacts after being dropped due to malfunctioning.

I think that, if you're going to refer to a clinical diagnosis...you might have to stick with the clinical diagnosis, rather than shoehorn on some other unknown and undemonstrated human organ or ability.  This is just to keep us from spiraling into complete and utter fantasy.  Speaking of dissociative disorders, I've been there.  I assure you, there was still an I "in there".  No one noticed my limp body staring lifelessly into a wall.  I talked.  I acted.  In fact, the problem was the fact that I kept talking and acting on a way completely unrepresentative of my actual situation.  That I, even though I was there, did not always seem to be at the controls of my right hand.  That I was satisfied with this state of affairs and did nothing to remedy it.  That I started to say and do things uncharacteristic of myself, that I began to take unneccesary risks with a body that I increasingly acted as though were not a part of my self.  This is what made it a disorder, what made it noticeable, what made it identifiable, what made it diagnosable.  I was not a selfless body, I was in no comatose state.  I was most definitely not one with the universe...I was barely one with myself. 

The nature of the breakdown of identify in a dissociative disorder is not such that a human body stands before the clinician with no noticeable identity or self.   While these disorders are interesting, they don't match the absence or lack of self, or of oneness with the universe.  So, these, wouldn't be candidates for a oneness switch malfunction.  Something else is going on...and generally speaking its a chemical imbalance or structural damage or some combination of the two.  For example..in my case, again...the break was proposed to have occurred in tandem with major trauma to the head, exacerbated by continuing traumatic events, while suffering from withdrawal syndrome.  
 

Another possibility might be that one use of asleep is to prevent such malfunctions. During REM you actually drop your I, but you drop too much stuff, so you also lose awareness. The person with a dropped "I" has awareness when "I" sleeps. They simply are aware of the voidness during the sleep and are very peacefully watching it. Many consider the ability to sleep and being awake at the same time (observing their asleep), as a clear sign of a dropped "I".

That seems to be an issue of counting hits and ignoring misses.  What about dreams?   Lucid dreams?  What about nightmares?  It seems as though, even in sleep, the I is firmly tethered to something.  If it weren't..one wonder why or how we would wake up.  Let;s run with it, though.  If this were representative of either the oneness switch or a malfunction...then are we talking about anything other..when we talk about meditation and the oneness that it purportedly can provide...than a dream?  Than falling asleep?

It seems as though we're attempting to talk about something distinct from that...and, again, I'm trying to figure out what that might be, and why it doesn't manifest itself as we would expect, either while we are meditating..while we have a dissociative break, while we're sleeping, or while we're driving a bus. 

There are also other things that one can hypothetically consider to be related to a situation of an accidentally dropped "I". Take reported "demon possession" cases for example.  OBE, our out of body experience might be a common way that a returned "I" describes the experience of being dropped due to a malfunction. BTW, we can create hypothesis for ever. There is no way to verify any of them, at least with the current state of cognitive and neuroscience.

No, I won't be taking demon possession.  Thank you.  It doesn't happen..and I try to limit myself to one bit of woo at a time.  If it's woo all the way down then searching for an explanation is an exercise in futility.  Why, though, do you think there would be no way to test a hypothesis capable of demonstrating this oneness switch, or why it doesn't malfunction, or why it does when it does?  Wouldn't you have to know alot more about it...namely..anything about it it, in order to make that pronouncement?  It just seems like a way to insist on a claim while conveniently scrubbing any responsibility for justying that same claim, and obviously saying that some is unverifiable does not explain anything at all about it.  

What is verifiable, is that people claim to possess an ability, or that some effect can be achieved.  What i also verifiable, is that those same people cannot do what they say can be done.  That what would happen, what would manifest itself as a verifiable effect -of- the claimed attribute or ability...just doesn't seem to be happening like we would expect.

Why, and why not?

Another matter is that if prolonged meditation can cause the shift, why not trying a direct stimulation of the brain? This might be possible, however it seems currently known methods  can only "temporarily" remove the I, and also there are some side effects! check out God Helmet for example, which was a scientific experiment to see how direct stimulations of the brain using a magnetic field can trigger "spiritual" experiences. Psychedelic drugs are also believed to be in this category by many people. There are countless reports about the lack of "I" from the ones who have used the drugs. There are of course some side effects though, the hallucinations and stuff.

Now, see, here, I think we're getting somewhere.  The effect of those drugs actually has a mechanism, that we can verify and measure.  There is a model for it's efficacy.  Monoamine oxidase inhibitors are used to treat depression.  They do so, so far as we can tell, by blocking the operation of the enzyme involved in removing the nuerotransmitters associated with human contentedness (norepinephrine, serotonin, and dopamin).  In a very literal sense, this enzime flushes happiness out of your brain.  Preventing it from doing that, or at least slowing down the rate at which it does that, produces feeling of wellbeing with predictable regularity.   What we expect to happen, happens. 

So, what, in the case of this oneness switch, is an analog to that?  What explanation can we offer for it to justify that it exists and has an effect..particularly when it doesn't seem to, and doesn't seem to have an effect, and..if it does have an effect, it;s not the one we would expect?  Not a conflation between it and sleeping.  Not a superstitious claim of demonic possession.   Something like we have for psychotropics...since, at the best, we're trying to find out why people feel that way...they obviously -don't- actually dissolve and become one with the universe.

  

What you do is irrelevant. Why you do is all that is relevant. Your reading of modern neuroscience can be your holy war to accept a voluntary death (dropping the "I") in the hope of returning to your Lord (your Universe) and attain his satisfaction (observing his oneness ).  Because you are doing it with the intention of dropping the I. The intention must be strong and constantly kept in awareness though. ISIS is doing it the wrong way, reading neuroscience or sitting cross-legged can be good ideas. 

So the what doesn't achieve the effect, only the why?  The effect, even the existence of the effect, is variable on intent?  That would be.......one of a kind.  None of your cpmments here describe why I'm interested in nueroscience, btw, and I'll just leave it at that.  

So, what;s the proper intent, then?  I mean, lets say that I and some guru both do the exact same thing..you said before there was a process.  We both complete each step identically.  What is the difference between the intent of the guru and my own intent that accounts for the effect failing to materialize in my case?  Honestly, what accounts for it failing to materialize in his case..as well..lol?  

I think the lights are on, no bodies home might be the case. There is a lot of emphasis on this in Buddhism. The quest is to "realize the voidness of beings" which means realizing the simple fact that there is nothing "in the" beings. They are just what they are observed to be. Am I getting to your point?

Right, alot of emphasis on it in budhism, but no actual examples of it.  That's what I'm getting at.  Why don't we find those nobody home oneness switched bodies laying around? Why is it that the verifiable rate of occurrence for this switch being flipped is the same for intentional practitioners and unlucky bus drivers..namely, zero?