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Proof that God exists
#87
RE: Proof that God exists
(January 14, 2018 at 1:19 am)Conspiracy_of_reason Wrote: Evolution tells us that species do not exist, just random drifts of genes interacting with each other subject to environmental changes. We must accept that the term 'species' is a collection of arbitrary divisions that humans use to help us manage genetic distinctions in neat packages, but, according to evolution, outside of the human imagination 'species' do not exist. The most scientifically accurate way to describe us would be as a 'system' of genes.
Very wise observation.

Quote:As with every other animal humans impact their environment and those changes feed back on us. This is the classic core concept of Complex Adaptive System Theory, part of what used to be called Chaos Theory. The two critical points in the life cycle of a system (and humans are a 'system') are the conditions under which the system is initiated and the point at which the system feeds back on itself, but these two critical points are the same for any system, the human system is not unique in this respect at all.
Seems like you're saying there is only one system.  I agree.

Quote:Yet, when we talk about scientific research and study we do so in the name of human progress. Scientifically speaking this is not a valid concept, there is no universal measure we can use as a yardstick to say 'this' is better than 'that', for every scientific change we make there is feedback on the system. While in the short term we may be living longer, more comfortably with less diseases, long term, - among many other things - we are depleting our resources and creating mega resistant bacteria that will bring infection and death to future generations (for example). We carry out scientific research to look for solutions to the problems we create for ourselves in the belief we will find them, but this is pure faith. We may find more short-term solutions, but the human ‘system’ will always be subject to system feedback and environmental change, and there is nothing we can do about that. Scientific study and research, to paraphrase Michael Stipe, is a simple prop to occupy our time, it cannot deliver the 'progress' it promises, there is no 'better future' because the ultimate evolutionary apex of any system is, and always will be, extinction. And we can never escape that.
Exactly.  We can't have a game where "good" always wins.  We can't have all good and no bad.

Quote:Whatever country you live in, whatever language you speak, whatever colour your skin, whatever distraction you use we are all united in one thing, we will all ultimately die. There are many distractions from this inevitability, but it is inescapable. It makes no difference what we study, research, learn, change, develop or whatever else we believe will benefit the tribe, ultimately nothing will be remembered, and it will all burn away into the background of a universe that doesn't care about our ridiculous little human race.

But... we will persist because we have faith.
You lost me here because if we don't exist distinct from the universe, then how can we persist?  And what is faith and why is it important?

Quote:We will believe in science, god, enlightenment, fate or whatever else will bring us a better tomorrow, because it gives us hope. These constructs are our lifeboat in a sea of endless nothingness, they provide focus in the confusion, they comfort us in the long dark tea-time of the soul. These constructs embody a force that is irresistible, it is present in our imaginations, it is perpetual in our worlds, it is constant in our Universe. Whichever one we pick we put our ultimate faith in it, we believe in it because we must, it is our imperative.
So, we believe an illusion for comfort?  I can see value in that, but is it necessary?  Why isn't the truth also comforting?

Quote:Belief in science over any god or any other Universal force is just an exchange of prop. If you accept the primacy of science, then you also accept the primacy of every other prop because to reject them would be to deny the very force that drives us to create these structures. Which is why of all modern structures, Law, Politics, Sports, etc. only Science is held up to account against Religion...

because they are the same and just as faith gives us hope in a better tomorrow and drives scientific study, it also embodies god, they are as real as each other.
Seems like a poetic way of saying science is as faith-based as religion.

The moon is there; do you see it?
Yes I see it, but I do not believe it is there.
Well, it's a free country; believe what you want.

Ultimately, everything believed is a matter of preference.
Reply



Messages In This Thread
Proof that God exists - by TheoneandonlytrueGod - December 11, 2017 at 5:53 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Neo-Scholastic - December 11, 2017 at 6:33 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by TheoneandonlytrueGod - December 13, 2017 at 10:11 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by Catholic_Lady - December 13, 2017 at 11:04 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by Minimalist - December 11, 2017 at 6:37 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Cyberman - December 11, 2017 at 6:38 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by TheoneandonlytrueGod - December 11, 2017 at 11:07 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by brewer - December 11, 2017 at 11:01 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Valkyrie - December 11, 2017 at 11:11 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Catholic_Lady - December 12, 2017 at 12:26 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by Dnte - December 12, 2017 at 12:32 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by Fireball - December 12, 2017 at 12:35 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by c172 - December 12, 2017 at 12:35 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by ignoramus - December 12, 2017 at 2:51 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by SteveII - December 12, 2017 at 1:26 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by LastPoet - December 12, 2017 at 1:35 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Neo-Scholastic - December 12, 2017 at 8:21 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Edwardo Piet - December 12, 2017 at 4:02 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by vorlon13 - December 13, 2017 at 10:27 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by KittyAnn - December 13, 2017 at 2:47 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by ignoramus - December 13, 2017 at 11:29 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by ShirkahnW - December 27, 2017 at 6:48 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Fireball - December 27, 2017 at 11:00 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by ShirkahnW - December 28, 2017 at 5:14 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by Cyberman - December 27, 2017 at 9:46 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Whateverist - December 27, 2017 at 10:04 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Grandizer - December 28, 2017 at 12:20 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by Cyberman - December 28, 2017 at 7:52 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by Agnosty - December 30, 2017 at 11:43 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by Cyberman - December 30, 2017 at 1:56 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Agnosty - December 31, 2017 at 11:05 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by Cyberman - December 31, 2017 at 2:40 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Agnosty - January 1, 2018 at 12:24 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Whateverist - January 1, 2018 at 1:15 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Agnosty - January 4, 2018 at 11:20 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Whateverist - January 5, 2018 at 1:36 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by Brian37 - December 30, 2017 at 2:19 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by JackRussell - December 30, 2017 at 5:45 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Grand Nudger - January 4, 2018 at 11:59 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Agnosty - January 5, 2018 at 8:29 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Grand Nudger - January 5, 2018 at 12:10 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Agnosty - January 6, 2018 at 8:27 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Grand Nudger - January 6, 2018 at 10:57 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by Agnosty - January 7, 2018 at 4:10 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Grand Nudger - January 6, 2018 at 12:25 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Gawdzilla Sama - January 7, 2018 at 7:07 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Grand Nudger - January 7, 2018 at 8:21 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by Agnosty - January 8, 2018 at 2:14 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Grand Nudger - January 7, 2018 at 9:31 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by Agnosty - January 8, 2018 at 3:50 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by Grandizer - January 8, 2018 at 4:35 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by Agnosty - January 8, 2018 at 7:29 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by Grandizer - January 8, 2018 at 7:48 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by Agnosty - January 8, 2018 at 8:41 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by Grandizer - January 8, 2018 at 8:48 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by Agnosty - January 8, 2018 at 10:32 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by Grandizer - January 8, 2018 at 10:38 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by Agnosty - January 8, 2018 at 10:53 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Grand Nudger - January 8, 2018 at 10:05 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Grand Nudger - January 8, 2018 at 11:19 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by Agnosty - January 9, 2018 at 12:50 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Grand Nudger - January 9, 2018 at 7:10 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by Agnosty - January 10, 2018 at 6:17 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by Cyberman - January 12, 2018 at 2:43 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Agnosty - January 13, 2018 at 6:52 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by LadyForCamus - January 9, 2018 at 7:16 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Grand Nudger - January 9, 2018 at 7:34 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by Cyberman - January 9, 2018 at 10:47 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Grand Nudger - January 10, 2018 at 7:30 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by MysticKnight - January 11, 2018 at 6:35 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Grandizer - January 11, 2018 at 6:44 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Crossless2.0 - January 11, 2018 at 6:55 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Conspiracy_of_reason - January 14, 2018 at 1:19 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by vulcanlogician - January 14, 2018 at 1:44 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by Conspiracy_of_reason - January 14, 2018 at 1:53 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by Agnosty - January 15, 2018 at 10:28 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by Brian37 - January 15, 2018 at 10:49 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by Angrboda - January 14, 2018 at 6:20 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by Amarok - January 14, 2018 at 7:28 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by Conspiracy_of_reason - January 14, 2018 at 12:00 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Amarok - January 14, 2018 at 1:03 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Conspiracy_of_reason - January 14, 2018 at 6:14 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by vulcanlogician - January 14, 2018 at 8:04 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Grand Nudger - January 14, 2018 at 1:46 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Conspiracy_of_reason - January 14, 2018 at 8:19 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by vulcanlogician - January 14, 2018 at 9:34 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Agnosty - January 15, 2018 at 10:56 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by vulcanlogician - January 15, 2018 at 11:26 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by Agnosty - January 15, 2018 at 11:56 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by vulcanlogician - January 15, 2018 at 12:33 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Agnosty - January 15, 2018 at 12:54 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by vulcanlogician - January 15, 2018 at 1:02 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Agnosty - January 15, 2018 at 1:15 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by vulcanlogician - January 15, 2018 at 1:47 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Agnosty - January 15, 2018 at 2:23 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by downbeatplumb - January 15, 2018 at 2:49 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Conspiracy_of_reason - January 16, 2018 at 8:17 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by vulcanlogician - January 16, 2018 at 9:41 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Succubus - January 16, 2018 at 11:41 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by MysticKnight - January 14, 2018 at 1:56 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Grand Nudger - January 14, 2018 at 11:25 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Conspiracy_of_reason - January 16, 2018 at 9:50 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by vulcanlogician - January 16, 2018 at 10:28 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by KevinM1 - January 16, 2018 at 11:13 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Grand Nudger - January 15, 2018 at 11:57 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by Amarok - January 15, 2018 at 12:10 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Agnosty - January 15, 2018 at 12:13 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Grand Nudger - January 15, 2018 at 12:25 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Grand Nudger - January 15, 2018 at 12:34 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Agnosty - January 15, 2018 at 1:00 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by vulcanlogician - January 15, 2018 at 12:36 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Grand Nudger - January 15, 2018 at 12:45 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Grand Nudger - January 15, 2018 at 12:55 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Agnosty - January 15, 2018 at 1:02 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Grand Nudger - January 15, 2018 at 1:13 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Agnosty - January 15, 2018 at 1:17 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Grand Nudger - January 15, 2018 at 1:17 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Grand Nudger - January 15, 2018 at 1:28 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Agnosty - January 15, 2018 at 1:38 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Grand Nudger - January 15, 2018 at 1:45 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Agnosty - January 15, 2018 at 2:05 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Grand Nudger - January 15, 2018 at 2:11 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Agnosty - January 15, 2018 at 2:35 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Grand Nudger - January 15, 2018 at 2:24 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Agnosty - January 15, 2018 at 2:52 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Cyberman - January 15, 2018 at 7:31 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by LadyForCamus - January 15, 2018 at 2:42 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by vulcanlogician - January 15, 2018 at 2:46 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Agnosty - January 15, 2018 at 8:20 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by LadyForCamus - January 15, 2018 at 9:27 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Valkyrie - January 15, 2018 at 9:31 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Simon Moon - January 15, 2018 at 9:39 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by downbeatplumb - January 16, 2018 at 2:26 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Grand Nudger - January 15, 2018 at 2:48 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by vulcanlogician - January 15, 2018 at 3:01 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Grand Nudger - January 15, 2018 at 3:07 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Agnosty - January 15, 2018 at 7:04 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Valkyrie - January 15, 2018 at 3:31 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Grand Nudger - January 15, 2018 at 3:32 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Amarok - January 15, 2018 at 6:07 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Agnosty - January 15, 2018 at 7:51 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Simon Moon - January 15, 2018 at 8:45 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Agnosty - January 15, 2018 at 10:18 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Succubus - January 16, 2018 at 3:09 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Simon Moon - January 16, 2018 at 8:45 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by LadyForCamus - January 15, 2018 at 7:30 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by vulcanlogician - January 15, 2018 at 11:51 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by LadyForCamus - January 16, 2018 at 12:00 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by Agnosty - January 16, 2018 at 12:52 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by vulcanlogician - January 16, 2018 at 6:27 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Amarok - January 16, 2018 at 7:37 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Agnosty - January 18, 2018 at 10:20 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by Cyberman - January 15, 2018 at 8:15 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Grand Nudger - January 15, 2018 at 9:31 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Grand Nudger - January 15, 2018 at 10:47 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by LadyForCamus - January 15, 2018 at 11:21 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Amarok - January 15, 2018 at 11:30 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Grand Nudger - January 16, 2018 at 12:15 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Grand Nudger - January 16, 2018 at 1:44 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Cyberman - January 16, 2018 at 3:11 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by KevinM1 - January 16, 2018 at 3:14 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Valkyrie - January 16, 2018 at 3:21 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Cyberman - January 16, 2018 at 5:07 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by KevinM1 - January 16, 2018 at 6:29 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Grand Nudger - January 16, 2018 at 3:17 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Amarok - January 16, 2018 at 3:31 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by KevinM1 - January 16, 2018 at 4:59 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Cyberman - January 16, 2018 at 6:32 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Angrboda - January 16, 2018 at 7:54 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Valkyrie - January 16, 2018 at 7:58 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Amarok - January 16, 2018 at 8:25 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Grand Nudger - January 16, 2018 at 8:28 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Amarok - January 16, 2018 at 9:13 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Angrboda - January 17, 2018 at 12:20 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Grand Nudger - January 17, 2018 at 12:30 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by Amarok - January 17, 2018 at 5:49 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Grand Nudger - January 17, 2018 at 5:51 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by Amarok - January 17, 2018 at 8:49 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by Cyberman - January 17, 2018 at 9:00 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by KevinM1 - January 17, 2018 at 11:29 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by downbeatplumb - January 17, 2018 at 2:09 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by JackRussell - January 17, 2018 at 2:38 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Valkyrie - January 17, 2018 at 4:49 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Grand Nudger - January 17, 2018 at 2:43 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by JackRussell - January 17, 2018 at 3:00 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Grand Nudger - January 17, 2018 at 3:08 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Cyberman - January 17, 2018 at 4:54 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Valkyrie - January 17, 2018 at 5:20 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by SaStrike - January 18, 2018 at 10:43 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by Agnosty - January 18, 2018 at 11:27 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by SaStrike - January 18, 2018 at 12:35 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Cyberman - January 19, 2018 at 6:06 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Simon Moon - January 20, 2018 at 5:20 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by MysticKnight - January 20, 2018 at 6:06 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by polymath257 - January 20, 2018 at 6:42 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by KevinM1 - January 18, 2018 at 11:51 am
RE: Proof that God exists - by Amarok - January 18, 2018 at 12:42 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by JackRussell - January 18, 2018 at 3:47 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Cyberman - January 20, 2018 at 6:42 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by MysticKnight - January 20, 2018 at 6:56 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Simon Moon - January 20, 2018 at 8:32 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by Cyberman - January 20, 2018 at 7:11 pm
RE: Proof that God exists - by The Grand Nudger - January 23, 2018 at 11:42 pm

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