A call for sanity - Council of Ex Muslims

[Tiberius]

Again you contradict yourself. Why are muslims called muslims? Because they are labelled such by themselves by means of a belief system. That belief system is the very reason they call themselves a muslim not a christian or a sikh.

This has nothing to do with Muslims not being Muslims. This has to do with non-Muslims accepting that like all religions, Islam has various sects, and Muslims subscribe to lots of different beliefs within them. Just like not all Christians believe the Earth is 6,000 years old, not all Muslims believe that all infidels should die.

So by saying tolerate the muslim not the muslims beliefs you are indeed contradicting yourself. You cannot have one without the other, and just because there are muslims around the world who may not agree or actively practice a particular teaching of their religion. Does not mean to say that we should have to tolerate an intolerant fascist political ideology such as Islam.

We aren't saying this at all. It has nothing do with tolerating their beliefs, but everything to do with supporting their right to believe. We live in a world where people shouldn't be punished for the way they think, or or what they believe.

The thing about beliefs is that they are changeable. However, I guarantee you that nobody has ever changed their belief because it was forced on them by others. No Muslim is going to start thinking homosexuality is perfectly OK if we decide to punish them for thinking it is an abomination. The only way to change minds is to discuss things on equal terms; to treat people with respect, not with anger. To do otherwise is to become the very fascists you claim they are!

And thank you for pointing out that you don't give a toss about me not agreeing with you. I am glad we have such a discerning admin on this wonderful forum.

He doesn't have to agree with you, nor does he have to care that you disagree with him. That is his right, just as much as it is yours.

I can understand where your coming from here Tiberius, but how can one say I believe in freedom of speech and expression but not oppose a person, group or organisation of any kind which basic principles go against every type of freedom you seek to promote? It is counter productive.

You aren't listening. I do oppose such groups, so far as to voice my opposition directly to them. However, since I support freedom of speech and expression, I have to let them believe what they want, even if it goes against my own beliefs, or the very freedoms that grant them that privilege.

I've said it before here, and I'll say it again: The risk you run with freedom of speech is that one day you might lose it. If you support freedom of speech, then you must support the speech of those who want to censor and to control. You don't have to agree with them, but you have to support their right to say what they believe.

If you oppose fascism you naturally oppose Islam just as you would oppose Nazism. Yes they are in fact very similar in definition.

I suggest you actually talk to the Muslim members of this forum; you might learn a few things about Islam.

Again my friend I understand your good intention here to say we all have the right to believe and say what we wish. But again I will have to disagree with this notion of an all encompassing freedom to allow anything even if it is blantantly immoral.

Immoral in your eyes, but perhaps not in other peoples'. Homosexuality is perfectly moral in my eyes, but is immoral for some religious (and non-religious) people. Why do my morals and ethics take precedent over theirs?

Also, I never said I would "allow" anything. Freedom of speech and expression lets you believe and say whatever you want, but when it comes to actually interfering with people's lives, it is a very different matter. For instance, whilst I would support the right of some Christians to protest gay marriage, I would have the protesters arrested if they attempted to interrupt marriage ceremonies themselves. Likewise, I support the rights of Muslim women to wear whatever clothing they want, but if they are being forced to wear something against their will, I would have the perpetrators prosecuted.

If you are willing to associate yourself with a belief system which teaches that you will go to hell and be tortured for eternity for, lets say; homosexuality. Then you are agreeing to be labelled by said belief system, and by doing so you are not above criticism.

Which is why I am not willing to associate myself with such belief systems. There is a massive difference between agreeing with someone's beliefs, and letting them believe and speak about them. I do not agree with those beliefs, but I will defend their right to believe them, and I will defend their right to speak about them.

If a belief system is made up of immoral beliefs that impede upon the very nature of freedom as in the freedom to have sex with who you please no matter there gender, without fear of discrimination or persecution. How can you protect it by saying "but they should have the freedom to believe such things". It is completely and utterly wrong.

Beliefs cannot impede on the freedom of anything. Believers can. Which is why I am saying that such beliefs are fine for people to have, and fine for people to discuss, but if they start acting on them and violating other people's rights, then this is where I draw the line.

When I say they have the freedom to believe such things, I am not trying to protect their beliefs. Rather, I am trying to live up to my values and belief in freedom of speech and expression. I will oppose such beliefs; I will try to get them to change, but I will never deny a person's right to believe whatever they want, as I would not wish the same on me.

Have we really forgotten the Golden Rule in this modern era? What ever happened to "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"...

Put yourself in another person's shoes for one moment. Imagine if your government suddenly decided that because most of the world believes in God, atheism would suddenly become a criminal offense. How would you feel? One of your core beliefs has been made illegal because other people aren't respecting your right to believe what you want. This is how a lot of religious people feel when governments take it upon themselves to be dictators of moral order. It's wrong, and it's more like fascism than Islam can ever be.