A call for sanity - Council of Ex Muslims

[Citereh]

This has nothing to do with Muslims not being Muslims. This has to do with non-Muslims accepting that like all religions, Islam has various sects, and Muslims subscribe to lots of different beliefs within them. Just like not all Christians believe the Earth is 6,000 years old, not all Muslims believe that all infidels should die.

Agreed.

We aren't saying this at all. It has nothing do with tolerating their beliefs, but everything to do with supporting their right to believe. We live in a world where people shouldn't be punished for the way they think, or or what they believe.

Agreed with regards to not being punished.

The thing about beliefs is that they are changeable.

Disagree with regards to Islam. To reform Islam you would have to first get rid of Muhammad and second get rid of the Quran. You would have to take out a great portion of that book which is violent. You cannot change the Quran. You cannot reform it.

The Holy Qu'ran - Yusuf Ali
Surah 5, verse 3. "This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion." - How can your reform something which is perfect?

I agree forcibly trying to change ones mind is not the answer. Education of those who are willing to see Islam as the abomination that it truely is, is the priority. But those who are well versed in the teachings of Islam will never allow such things for fear of hellfire and other such nonsense.

He doesn't have to agree with you, nor does he have to care that you disagree with him. That is his right, just as much as it is yours.

This was merely my attempt at sarcasm, in return for Leo's unprovoked pompousness towards my original genuine question. I am well aware no one is obligated to agree with me. I ask that we forget this one please.

You aren't listening. I do oppose such groups, so far as to voice my opposition directly to them. However, since I support freedom of speech and expression, I have to let them believe what they want, even if it goes against my own beliefs, or the very freedoms that grant them that privilege.

I stand corrected with regards to your position on objecting to certain dogmatic beliefs and apologise for perhaps missing your point, but I also still stand by my statement, that passicism could be our undoing against such aggressive ideologies.

I suggest you actually talk to the Muslim members of this forum; you might learn a few things about Islam.

May I suggest you actually read the Qu'ran and reference the Sunnah (Ahaddiths) for yourself and not go on what perhaps some narcistic Islamist tells you. I can recommend the Oxford World Classics Qu'ran by M.A.S Abdel Haleem and the below website for Hadith references.

http://www.searchtruth.com/hadith_books.php

As to Islam being fascist, please refer to the below link for an explanation.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2005/04/sina-i...scism.html

Also, I never said I would "allow" anything. Freedom of speech and expression lets you believe and say whatever you want, but when it comes to actually interfering with people's lives, it is a very different matter. For instance, whilst I would support the right of some Christians to protest gay marriage, I would have the protesters arrested if they attempted to interrupt marriage ceremonies themselves. Likewise, I support the rights of Muslim women to wear whatever clothing they want, but if they are being forced to wear something against their will, I would have the perpetrators prosecuted.

Would you class indoctrinating childeren who are then relentlessly mentally tormented by the prospect of eternal hell fire if they do not believe in the despicable beliefs of their parents, interfering? I would.

Would you class "real" muslims (I use the term real as they are actually following their religious scriptures as they are written) who protest around the world with placards that for example call for the murder of people who insult/criticise Islam, interfering? I would. Or is that acceptable in your definition of freedom of speech? They are only saying how they feel and aren't physically hurting anyone.

The saying "the pen is mightier than the sword" can be adapted slightly to something like: "An idea is deadlier than the action" and it would pretty much sum up why I do not believe such out spoken opinions should be tolerated.

Beliefs cannot impede on the freedom of anything. Believers can. Which is why I am saying that such beliefs are fine for people to have, and fine for people to discuss, but if they start acting on them and violating other people's rights, then this is where I draw the line.

Without believers, religious teachings are nothing more than characters on paper. What point is there in them having such beliefs if they are not ready to fight verbally or physically those who oppose what is right in their oppinion. Take these quotes for example from the Qu'ran:

“Muslims are the vilest of animals…”

“Show mercy to one another, but be ruthless to Muslims”

“How perverse are Muslims!”

“Strike off the heads of Muslims, as well as their fingertips”

“Fight those Muslims who are near to you”

“Muslim mischief makers should be murdered or crucified”

Hate speech? Incitement to violence? Sounds like it to me, but a knowledgeable Muslim would have to disagree. The unaltered verses actually say jew, christian or unbeliever. They are the literal words of Allah via Muhammad and therefore deemed acceptable to those that believe in such scriptures and is why you have such ignorant people spouting such vile beliefs.

Have we really forgotten the Golden Rule in this modern era? What ever happened to "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"...

If we did unto them as they do unto us, such as they teach in the above verses of their religion; we would be in a much graver situation than we are in now.

Put yourself in another person's shoes for one moment. Imagine if your government suddenly decided that because most of the world believes in God, atheism would suddenly become a criminal offense. How would you feel? One of your core beliefs has been made illegal because other people aren't respecting your right to believe what you want. This is how a lot of religious people feel when governments take it upon themselves to be dictators of moral order. It's wrong, and it's more like fascism than Islam can ever be.

I would only need to look back a 100 or so years of western society to see exactly what you are talking about, and people had to fight and die for the privllege we now have to believe in such enlightened freethinking.

Kind Regards,

Citereh