(October 26, 2018 at 7:13 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: Okay. I don't know if I'm high level or not,
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I suspect that you are.
(October 26, 2018 at 7:13 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: ...
I'm working on a new argument which concludes that logic is a subjective thing.
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Good choice for this thread.
(October 26, 2018 at 7:13 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: ...
1. I don't know French. I speak common, thieves cant, halfling, and elvish.
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I have a smattering of French. After years of study I am fluent in the languages of the people of Gibber and Rubb.
(October 26, 2018 at 7:13 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: ...
2. Logic has evolved. It hasn't been intelligently designed.
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I suspect that 'artificial selection' has been at play with numerous attempts at cross-pollination.
(October 26, 2018 at 7:13 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: ...
3. Logic is a "value stream." (It values conclusions that follow over those that don't.)
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Nope. Logic is a 'thinking tool' and would thus belong to the category of 'information / technology'.
A 'value stream' is a series of steps undertaken to create and deliver value to stakeholders and includes the activities, workflows, controls and procedures needed to achieve agreed goals. It will utilise information / technology, e.g. logic, to get there.
(October 26, 2018 at 7:13 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: ...
4. There is no "out there" yard stick for measuring accurate logic (god or other).
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Yes. 'Accuracy' is an intrinsic quality criteria so it only requires internal consistency.
(October 26, 2018 at 7:13 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: ...
5. There is no non-human representation of logical/illogical.
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Correct... that we know of.
Vulcans notwithstanding.
(October 26, 2018 at 7:13 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: ...
6. Logic requires a social context.
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It doesn't.
(October 26, 2018 at 7:13 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: ...
For example, the Kalam argument represents perfect logic to some theists.
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I know, right?
(October 26, 2018 at 7:13 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: ...
Therefore we shouldn't call the Kalam argument out for faultiness because it depends on one's cultural/social context whether it works or not.
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It doesn't ... so, non sequitur.
(October 26, 2018 at 7:13 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: ...
7. Logic is not a simplex system... it is duplex (and perhaps multiplex?) in that there are three pathways:
a) Sense data to premises.
b) Premises to conclusion.
c) And then reasoning is involved somewhere in there too. That's pretty complex. If it's complicated, it must be subjective. I don't think anyone disputes this.
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I dispute it. You've described a simplex system... it's mono-directional. You can't automatically get to the premises from the conclusion. It's much harder to get an 'if' from a 'then' than it is to get a 'then' from an 'if'.
Note to Rob: Given the equivocation issues in other threads, I'll be interpreting 'objective' and 'subjective' as 'quantitative' and 'qualitative' respectively in this thread. Let me know if you're OK with that.
(October 26, 2018 at 7:13 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: ...
8. People always call logical fallacies out merely to dismiss others' opinions when they disagree.
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I don't know about 'always' but yes, I have noticed that phenomenon. I'll be doing that myself, later on.
(October 26, 2018 at 7:13 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: ...
Theists might not think their reasoning is fallacious because they are attached to the conclusion of their argument.
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Excellent observation.
They are using WKID rather than DIKW
(October 26, 2018 at 7:13 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: ...
We need to stop thinking that there is some "out there" agreed upon set of logical fallacies. If a post hoc argument works in your conception, that's your subjective opinion, and no one ought to be able to say "That reasoning doesn't follow." That's just their opinion.
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There's that 'ought from is' problem again.
(October 26, 2018 at 7:13 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: ...
9. I don't think there is any doubt that our capacity to use logic is the product of evolution.
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Agreed.
I prefer the word 'capability' to the word 'capacity' but no worries.
(October 26, 2018 at 7:13 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: ...
That (somehow) makes it subjective.
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Non sequitur!
(told you so )
(October 26, 2018 at 7:13 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: ...
It's pretty clear that our hominid ancestors lacked the capacity to use logic. And we evolved the capacity to employ it. Anything that is the product of evolution cannot be objective, of course.
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Non sequitur, again. Something like 'the number of extinct species' would be hard (if not impossible) to quantify but it would still be a quantitative metric.
It's a fair point though overall... what, indeed, were the earliest thinking-tools?
I have a suspicion that both music and spear-throwing have the same root... the heartbeat as the basis for rhythm and counting. Tribal music (particularly drums) and dance had the benefit of aiding group co-ordination.
(October 26, 2018 at 7:13 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: ...
I hope that atheists will take note of what I've said here, and stop calling theists out for "misuse of logic." You can't do that
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I can and I will.
Children who are not taught the correct way to use power tools could get themselves hurt.
(October 26, 2018 at 7:13 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: ...
That assumes some kind of objective component to logic.
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That would be correct. Boolean logic, for example, can contain both quantitative and qualitative elements.
(October 26, 2018 at 7:13 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: ...
Logic is a cultural/subjective thing.
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Culture is 'aggregated behaviour'. Logic (as information technology) acts as an enabler/constraint that influences behaviour.
(October 26, 2018 at 7:13 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: ...
Whether their logical arguments follow or not is a matter of opinion.
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Incorrect.
(October 26, 2018 at 7:13 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: ...
Logical reasoning is merely an artifact of our evolutionary development.
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Artifact or artefact? The latter appears more fashionable in governance circles. But yes, it's a highly prized artefact due to its usefulness.
(October 26, 2018 at 7:13 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: ...
It helped communication in tribal social spheres and helped us figure out where food supplies were when we were hunter/gatherers. Cavemen used rudimentary logic. "I heard rustling in bushes. Therefore bunny that I'm hunting went into bushes."
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I think you are referring to reasoning rather than formal logic but yes, as information-technology, it's a valuable survival tool.
(October 26, 2018 at 7:13 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: ...
There is no "out there" objective metric by which we can measure the accuracy of logical arguments.
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Again, 'accuracy' is an intrinsic quality criteria, so no 'out there' is required.
(October 26, 2018 at 7:13 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: ...
If humans disappeared from the face of the earth, so would logic.
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This, sadly, might be true unless a post-human species can decipher our artefacts stored in our information technology e.g. books.
If we want to assist future species then we probably ought to consider using more resilient media such as stone tablets.
That would be the logicial, no, the reasonable thing to do.
The PURPOSE of life is to replicate our DNA ................. (from Darwin)
The MEANING of life is the experience of living ... (from Frank Herbert)
The VALUE of life is the legacy we leave behind ..... (from observation)
The MEANING of life is the experience of living ... (from Frank Herbert)
The VALUE of life is the legacy we leave behind ..... (from observation)