(December 5, 2018 at 1:01 pm)Cherub786 Wrote:(December 5, 2018 at 12:54 pm)unfogged Wrote: So you agree that you can't apply the laws that exist within the universe but then you go ahead and apply them anyway. Logic and philosophy are not separate from the laws of physics when you are talking about what is
"Every effect has a cause" and "there has to be a cause logically" are only arguable WITHIN this universe at maybe even then only at the macroscopic level; what you or I may consider "logical" may simply not apply to the creation of universes.
The realm of logic and philosophy is irrelevant where the same logic may not hold and even if it did, it will only get you to possibilities. You still need actual evidence before a conclusion can be reached.
Logic and philosophy are separate from the laws of physics. The laws of physics are limited in scope and cannot be applied to what if anything exists beyond the universe, but logic and philosophy are broader in their scope and can be applied to anything.
Every effect having a cause is not a law of physics, it is derived from logic.
That's simply wrong. The logic you are trying to apply is based on how reality operates in our experience. There is no purely logical requirement for causation.
Until you have an example of something that is "beyond the universe" you have no idea what logic would apply there.
Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!