(May 27, 2009 at 2:11 pm)Darwinian Wrote: I have no evidence for my position just as you have no evidence for yours.I don't need any. The burden of proof is entirely on those who believe in this 'free will'.
There is evidence of physics...there is NOT evidence of any 'free will' to CHOOSE what physics happen or to 'choose thoughts' or to choose your own 'choices'.
It is more parsimonious to simply believe that it's all physics....I know of no evidence of free will...I do not need any evidence to REJECT it - there is no evidence OF it.
Quote:This is why it's called philosophy and why philosophers have been arguing about it since the the beginning of philosophical thought.
I've got plenty of reason to believe this is all physics and 'automatic' whether it's deterministiic OR INdetermistiic....to believe that we can some how 'direct' WHICH 'path' we go down IN an INdeterministic universe of though...I will need evidence for that....
I know of no reason to believe we have any choice in the matter. To HAVE free will for it TO exist is what needs evidence...I don't need any evidece to reject it! There is evidence of physics...I don't need any evidence to reject the notion that there is 'something else' that there is 'free will' - I have no reason TO believe that there is 'something else' or 'free will' no evidence whatsoever!
There is already evidence for physics. Not for free will - I don't need ANY evidence to REJECT free will...
To believe it actually EXISTS though...to believe that rationally AT ALL - I could do with some fucking evidence first!
Quote:All I will say is this.. From what I understand so far about the universe, physics, quantum mechanics, chaos theory, string theory and my own mind I tend to side with Daniel Dennett on this one in that I see no conflict between determinism and free will...
1. I don't know your view but from both Adrian and others I have heard that Quantum Mechanics apparently supports INdeterminism not determinism? I'm not sure on the matter but for the time being at least, for that reason I lean towards INdeterminism. I know fuck-all about that matter.
2. My point is that there is no reason to believe in free will WITH or WITHOUT determinism. And that as far as I'm concerned: Dennett supports my argument! Because HIS definition of free will is NOT what most people define as free will nor what *I* am defining as 'free will'...
Why aren't I defining it like Dennett? Because he defines it as 'evitability' or 'avoidability' so it's compatible with determinism too....but evitability fucking OBVIOUSLY exists! Humans have more 'evitability' or 'avoidability' than a pile of rocks because they can drive motorcars, build computers climb mountains and go to the moon!!
With or without what *I* and how MOST people define free willl....of COURSE there's EVITABILITY - whether we have ANY choice in out avoiding, in our evitability or not...with or without ANY free will - there is still evitability...there is still 'free will' in THAT sense as Dennett defines it! But that's fucking obvious to everyone! People have the freedom to 'do things' whether they have a choice in the matter or not!!
As Dennett says....if someone throws a brick you can duck....whether you can choose it or not...whether it was determined or not! - that's obvious! That's EVITABILITY - but how does that give you any freedom in whether to MAKE that choice or not? It doesn't.
All it's saying is that YOU CAN DO IT - not that you can really CHOOSE it. Just that you can do it and you can BELIEVE you can 'choose it' there's no evidence that you actually can....
If you define 'free will' as EVITABILITY then fine....but even computer A.I has evitability...even an ANT has evitability....the ability to avoid things....it's stating the obvious and it's got nothing to do with actual 'free will' AS IN - having any real choice in the matter.
Whether you BELIEVE you have 'choice' or not...that doesn't mean you actually do. You can call it what you want.
I know of no evidence or IOW reason to believe whatsoever.
Quote:Again, I have NO evidence for my viewpoint as I believe this is a subject that cannot be proved either one way or the other and to try to use the 'lack of evidence' card in favour of an argument this is obviously philosophical is perhaps, oxymoronic.
How is lack of evidence oxymoronic??? There's plenty of evidence for physics...but no evidence whatsoever that we can even REMOTELY....CHOOSE our own choices...MAKE our own decisions out of CHOICE - we just believe we do and CALL IT 'making choices' - I know of no evidence that we have any choice in the matter....
Wouldn't that belief require evidence? No evidence is needed whatsoever to reject it...I know of no evidence and have no reason to believe that there really IS 'free will' or any choice in the matter.
I would think it would be claims about the UNIVERSE....to SAY that we CAN make choices without any evidence whatsoever that we ACTUALLY CAN - why would you believe if there's no evidence or reason to believe that?
It's not open for choice here. Either 'free will' exists or has SOME effect in this universe or it doesn't.
Either there is SOME reason to believe in 'free will' SOME evidence...ANY evidence - or there isn't.
I don't know of any...why would I believe it? There's plenty of evidence for physics FFS (DUHH!) - is there evidence that we can influence it WHATSOEVER? Nope.
If we BELIEVE we have 'free will' how is that REMOTELY evidence that we do?
(answer: it isn't. How would it be?)
Finally: I believe 'free will' is also a scientific claim. Why? Because it is a claim that we can CHOOSE our own thoughts and MAKE our own decisions WITHIN this universe that we can CHOOSE the WAY physics actually go - that's an effect within the universe.....either we have that ability WITHIN this universe to EFFECT this universe - or we don't...
Where is the evidence that we DO? As far as I know we just commonly BELIEVE we have free will and SAY we 'make choices' - I know of no evidence whatsoever that we actually DO have 'free will' or 'make choices' - whatever we CALL IT.
(May 27, 2009 at 2:42 pm)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: And there, I believe, you err because (at least in private conversations with Ev) he has agreed that there is no support for the belief that there is no free will either ... whichever way you look at it the idea that we have free will is based on assumption (it looks like it, it feels like it but there's no evidence because it can't be tested in any objective fashion).
Kyu
I actually said to you though Kyu...that while there is no evidence either way - it's free will that needs the evidence because it's making an assumption that we actually HAVE this 'free will' this power within this very universe - I know of no evidence whatsoever of the truth of it....
As far as I'm concerned 'NO free will' is much more probable.....I'd need a shitload of evidence to believe that we actually CHOOSE our own thoughts CHOOSE WHAT path we go down - how the fuck would we do that? Where is the evidence?
As far as I know we just BELIEVE we do! Where's the evidence we actually do? As far as I know we just do stuff and take credit for it! How could we be separate from physics whether it's fixed and determined OR whether it's more uncertain, random and INdeterministiic?!
There is evidence of physics...that we actually CHOOSE how it goes? No.
That we BELIEVE we can 'CHOOSE' and that we have 'free will' - YES, there's evidence that we BELIEVE we do...
But how is that REMOTELY evidence of the truth of it? What...so the belief is evidence of the truth of the belief itself!??!
I don't need evidence to REJECT free willl....I need a reason TO believe it - why should I believe it? The fact it's commonly believed is not REMOTELY evidence that it's true!! How would it be?
EvF
