(May 27, 2009 at 11:52 am)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: I need a reason to believe in this 'free will' thing - I would think NO 'free will would be the default.Agreed, although in philosophy there is no such thing as evidence, only logical reasoning.
Quote:Because there's already evidence for physics and the mechanics of the universe. But no evidence (as far as I know) that we can influence THAT other than what we are doing simply BECAUSE of it whether we like it or not. In which case we don't really influence stuff 'ourselves' because we are PART OF it. We are bound by the same things as far as I knowThere is no evidence that can be used to back up either idea. Unfortunately unlike the God issue, one cannot simply ask for evidence. You can see the issue of free-will like the deist god, completely unprovable, but worth some decent arguing about in philosophy.
Quote:either we are determined like the rest of the universe (determinism) or we're not (indeterminism) and we're more random. This applies to the rest of physics - what evidence is there even remotely that it isn't exactly the same for US? I know of no evidence that PHYSICS ITSELF has 'free will' - why would we be any different?Except the rest of the universe isn't determined; any person who has studied quantum mechanics for even 10 minutes can tell you that. Why would physics need free-will? Why are you even asking that question? It makes no sense. I don't think free-will is separate from physics, I say that free-will is a part of it. Free-will is a part of consciousness, saying that we have some degree of control over our actions; that we aren't just instinct machines pre-programmed by our DNA. Our decisions are affected by our environment, where we are, the people we know, etc. To suppose that our decisions could not change if these factors did not change is ridiculous in my mind.
Quote:The fact people merely believe that GOD exists or is present in the universe is not even remotely evidence that he exists - why would it be different for free will? And if we need evidence FOR GOD's presence/existence first why wouldn't we for free will too?God is an external entity to us, usually considered separate to the universe. Most gods are said to play some part in the universe, and therefore there should be evidence of them. Hence why we ask for evidence. You can't ask that question of a deist though, since they will freely admit that there is no direct evidence. The deist will argue from logic (i.e. purely philosophical) that god exists. The difference with God and free-will is that free-will (or determined-will for that matter) are completely indistinguishable from each other, since they both cannot be repeated. The only experiment that could determine free-will existed would be to observe a choice, rewind time to before the choice, and then see if it could be made differently. If it could, the free-will exists, if it couldn't, then free-will does not exist (at least in that individual decision). The problem with this is that we do not have the technology to conduct such an experiment.
Quote:INdeterminism just means the universe isn't determined; i.e. physics is more random... How does more random remotely give any evidence of or reason to believe in 'free will'?We are part of physics, our consciousnesses exist as part of physics. If physics can be random, then why can't our consciousnesses? It's not evidence in support of free-will, but it's evidence that suggests free-will may be possible. It certainly gives a reason though.
If free-will doesn't exist, then the choice to catch a ball thrown at you is always going to be the same. If it does, then the choice may be the same, it may be different, but the choice is there. Even every single decision boils down to a neuron firing, then in an indetermined universe, what's stopping the consciousness from also being indetermined?
Quote:Dice are random. But do they have any more choice in how they get thrown simply if they aren't RIGGED dice? Just because there are more possibilities?Strawman. Dice do not have decision making capabilities, there is no choice involved.
