RE: Atheists being asked about the existence of Jesus
January 21, 2019 at 9:37 am
(This post was last modified: January 21, 2019 at 9:59 am by The Grand Nudger.)
(January 18, 2019 at 7:59 am)Acrobat Wrote:We clearly don't occupy the same reality, or follow the same rules of sensible discourse.... so I can't imagine how a productive discussion would follow from that realization?(January 17, 2019 at 7:10 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: We don't have those. We have psuedepigraphy, interpolations, and downright forgery...all swirling around a hellenic mytheme.
No we have those, we have a first hand account of someone who met his brother and disciples, and even had disputes with them. In fact the death of Jesus’s brother, is written of by a Jewish Historian Josephus, whose pretty much the only historian we have writing of that entire period in roman Palestine. And this portion unlike the portion you’re probably thinking of is considered authentic.
Quote:The vox populi. Everyone wants to cram their favorite saying into the mouth of a demi-god, lol.
Whose favorite sayings? You have multiple texts, with the same sayings and parables, that incorporate unique styles of irony, reversal of expectations, etc.. attributed to a first century jewish preacher named Jesus, and no one else.
Perhaps you might say there was an original writing perhaps the Q, whose authors composed these sayings, who went around preaching them as well. But you’d be back at square one. Whose the author? We don’t know his name, but a variety of writing indicate their author is named Jesus.
Quote:The romans also acknowledged the existence of the dragons of britain... and vowed to defeat them.
Then I guess I should deem all historical persons of the time, who lack any physical archeological evidence, but written of by roman historians, as likely to exist as dragons?
Quote:What events? The rise of christianity didn't happen until 300ad. "Jesus" wasn't exactly around to help at that point in time. They spent their first 1k years as a church purging their own myths......and textual criticism has spent the last 200 pointing out the legendary. They had to stomp on a few heretics along the way....oddly enough, people didn't seem to agree about "the events"..and, by people, I mean early christians.
If you want to know about events that shaped the christian movement..consider this. Following a generation of pandemic...and a the assumption of a new dynasty whose emperor needed to fire all the praetorians plotting to kill him.........christ, as we know him...was born. It was a culture that improved the sick and poors way of life...and an ideology that was useful to that populations owners..both in the immediate (then)present and near future. The whole situation with the christian apparatus was a sort of street war between vox and the imperial cult, the same man heading both sides of that culture war for a time.
No the NT Writings were composed far earlier than 300ad.
-Josephus is not a first hand account of anything.
-"Jesus" wrote nothing.
-You should consider roman acknowledgement of mythemes for exactly what they are, not certification of the existence of dragons -or- demigods. I strongly suspect that you've made a similar mistake with regards to any potentially authentic portion of josephus.
-It doesn't matter when christian fiction was authored, the rise of christianity, in 300ad... had little to do with that, early christians being wholly unaware of the various stories floating around. This is why the first order of business for that nascent unified church (read, catholic, lol)..after securing the will of the people and the backing of the imperial apparatus in exchange - was selecting a romanized canon from the prodigious works of literature available to them, and eradicating any competing liturgical authority. Quite a lift, for a bunch of folks who had contained themselves to handing out cakes to poor people for so long.
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