RE: Atheists being asked about the existence of Jesus
January 21, 2019 at 10:37 am
(This post was last modified: January 21, 2019 at 11:03 am by The Grand Nudger.)
They aren't built from individuals in any more meaningful sense than the characters in any other work of fiction are - and this is certainly not what's being asked when someone wants to know why you think there was a real arthur (or jesus). They aren't looking for Tyler Durden, who was assuredly built from real people in precisely the manner you've offered in case of arthur.
Consider Paul Bunyon and Count Dracula. Each are built from real people (in the manner we're discussing), one is wholly legendary (there was no guy or even guys whom paul was qualitatively based on). The other entirely mythical. Both are expressions of racial/cultural awareness, the influx of french loggers to north america in one story, and eastern wealth in the other. It isn't reasonable, or more reasonable..to posit (without evidence, as you've noted) that they were based on Some Guy, it's less so.
These characters are characters very much like the demigod of new magic book - a demigod not based on any historical personage. New magic book isn't even in the business of establishing the historical man, only the theological and liturgical authority of the divine.
To put this another way, a deceptive way..seemingly simple but nuanced, if I write the sentence "A man walked across the street" - does that then signify that I am referring to a historical personage? Is it more or less likely that I'm referring to a historical personage? Is there any requirement that there be a historical personage around which my character was built? Is it impossible for me to base my story on a mythical or legendary character? Is it impossible for me to write a story about a mythical or legendary character that posits them as historical personages?
Obviously not all questions that require an answer, just things to think about. The most common response to a question of historicity when it comes to christ (or any of these characters) is the vague idea that there just had to be or probably was Some Guy - but that's not actually the position of reason or scholarship when it comes to this form of literature, and no amount of legendary or mythological narratives go so much as an inch to establishing the likelihood of historical personage.
To put more flesh on these bones. Arthur, as a figure in establishment folklore - is not a king or warlord that anyone ever had, but thie king or warlord they wished for theirs to be - not at the time of the setting of the story...but at the time of it's authoring or circulation.
The difference between mallory's arthur and geoffreys is astounding - and we know that both were works of fiction.... whole cloth fiction - not based on anything but the minds and sensibilities of each author, one writing in the 1100's, the other in the 15's....about a man purported to have lived in the fifth or sixth century, when no one noticed him. Geoffreys arthur was a conqueror who brought not only britain, but most of europe to his heel. Malloriy's Arthur was a calculating nobleman in a complicated court. Neither were historical personages, though both were based on legendary personages...themselves derived from mythical personages.
(I may be off by a century above, I can't remember offhand).
Ultimately, the general (and common) assumption that the way these things work is that we start with a man, and then write legends, and then the legends turn to myths..despite being common since Euhemerus, is turnd on it;s face time and time again. We could go from arthurian and christ myth to the cargo cults of the pacific (specifically the prince and frum movements) to see another demonstration of the same..where we begin with myth, that myth is then narrated legendarily, and that culture then assumes some historical personage or initiating event.
Consider Paul Bunyon and Count Dracula. Each are built from real people (in the manner we're discussing), one is wholly legendary (there was no guy or even guys whom paul was qualitatively based on). The other entirely mythical. Both are expressions of racial/cultural awareness, the influx of french loggers to north america in one story, and eastern wealth in the other. It isn't reasonable, or more reasonable..to posit (without evidence, as you've noted) that they were based on Some Guy, it's less so.
These characters are characters very much like the demigod of new magic book - a demigod not based on any historical personage. New magic book isn't even in the business of establishing the historical man, only the theological and liturgical authority of the divine.
To put this another way, a deceptive way..seemingly simple but nuanced, if I write the sentence "A man walked across the street" - does that then signify that I am referring to a historical personage? Is it more or less likely that I'm referring to a historical personage? Is there any requirement that there be a historical personage around which my character was built? Is it impossible for me to base my story on a mythical or legendary character? Is it impossible for me to write a story about a mythical or legendary character that posits them as historical personages?
Obviously not all questions that require an answer, just things to think about. The most common response to a question of historicity when it comes to christ (or any of these characters) is the vague idea that there just had to be or probably was Some Guy - but that's not actually the position of reason or scholarship when it comes to this form of literature, and no amount of legendary or mythological narratives go so much as an inch to establishing the likelihood of historical personage.
To put more flesh on these bones. Arthur, as a figure in establishment folklore - is not a king or warlord that anyone ever had, but thie king or warlord they wished for theirs to be - not at the time of the setting of the story...but at the time of it's authoring or circulation.
The difference between mallory's arthur and geoffreys is astounding - and we know that both were works of fiction.... whole cloth fiction - not based on anything but the minds and sensibilities of each author, one writing in the 1100's, the other in the 15's....about a man purported to have lived in the fifth or sixth century, when no one noticed him. Geoffreys arthur was a conqueror who brought not only britain, but most of europe to his heel. Malloriy's Arthur was a calculating nobleman in a complicated court. Neither were historical personages, though both were based on legendary personages...themselves derived from mythical personages.
(I may be off by a century above, I can't remember offhand).
Ultimately, the general (and common) assumption that the way these things work is that we start with a man, and then write legends, and then the legends turn to myths..despite being common since Euhemerus, is turnd on it;s face time and time again. We could go from arthurian and christ myth to the cargo cults of the pacific (specifically the prince and frum movements) to see another demonstration of the same..where we begin with myth, that myth is then narrated legendarily, and that culture then assumes some historical personage or initiating event.
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