Kid arrested for not standing for pledge...

[Brian37]

I love Jefferson. I'm very aware of his stance on Church and state. You may ascribe to him deism, Unitarianism or rational religiosity. It's fairly apparent in all of his letters that he was railing against organized religion and for clear separation of church funded by the state. I think we can agree that Jefferson didn't want a theocracy, and didn't want blind loyalty. He even called himself Christian a time or two. He believes in a creator God and follows Jesus' moral teaching.

Often times though, tirades go askew to the point people assert that you can't be rational and a Christian and believe in Free will, so I was just setting that point up in conversation for future reference.</side-track>

Please continue with patriotism, free will, and religion in school discussion.

The difference between fundies and I, when speaking of Jefferson, fundies love to claim him.

But I have no doubt, if he were alive today, or I was alive back then, and we had met face to face, or Hitchens met him for that matter. 

It would not go like the fundies claim.

Hitchens, "Dude, Thomas, you don't need that mythological god to do anything."

Jefferson, wouldn't have screamed, " FUCK YOU ATHEIST" 

He would have responded, " How can you say that with all the wonder in the world?"

Jefferson liked the NT Jesus, but not as a magic man, but a mere mortal.

I would have argued with him, if alive back then, "Dude, love the anti theocracy stance, but why do you think human morality is handed to us from above?"

Jefferson loved the NT kindness motif of the NT, but hated the fantastic claims of the entire bible, and I'd agree with him on that.

He saw the Jesus character as real, but not a magic man. Thus Jefferson wrote his own bible stripping it of the superstition and fantastic claims.

He saw the Jesus character as a real person, but just a philosopher. 

My argument would have been, and Hitchens as well I'd argue, would be if someone is finite, and mortal, then why do their ideas have to still be attached to a super natural being? 

Why cant it be that nature is nature, and no super natural being is helping us? Why couldn't what Jefferson valued and I value, simply be a product of human nature?

Jefferson simply thought that a God existed, but stepped aside once he started everything. I still have  huge problem filling in the gap with a super cognition regardless.

I think our species ability to be cruel or compassionate are in our evolution, our genes as individual, and there is no super cognition causing or allowing human beings to do either.