(May 28, 2009 at 6:07 pm)Darwinian Wrote: Who's decision is it then? I say it's my choice because I can't see how it can be anyone else's.
You're making decisions as in you are 'doing stuff' and you BELIEVE you make choices and you BELIEVE in free will. I know of no evidence of the truth of this though. And as I say - belief in 'free will' is not evidence of it. I know of no reason to believe.
Who's decision is it then? Well - it's yours in the sense THAT YOU 'do stuff' and BELIEVE it's your choice...but I know of no actual evidence that you have any choice in the matter...
You have thoughts yes... - do you CHOOSE them? I know of no evidence of this.
You do stuff yes...you BELIEVE you CHOOSE that yes...and you CALL it 'choosing' - but any evidence that you actually DO? I don't know of any.
As far as I'm concerned your thoughts and actions depend on many things, genetic, enviromental, etc, it's all physics ultimately. I know of no evidence that YOU somehow 'choose this' - the fact you BELIEVE you do is not evidence for the truth OF that very belief! That's circular reasoning as I say.
Quote:Basically it all boils down to the fact that I believe that free will exists and as you rightly say I have no evidence for this.Indeed you have no evidence. No evidence to believe it though yeah? No reason?
Quote:On the other hand you believe that free will is simply an illusion but you have no evidence for this either.
Why would I? I don't believe that free will is some 'big illusion' and that I also like you having no evidence FOR it - I also have no evidence 'of the illusion'...
No - the fact that people believe in God does not mean I need evidence for the 'illusion of God'. It doesn't matter how many people believe in God - I don't need evidence that it's 'just an illusion'.
The point is...the fact people DO believe in free will ( commonly anyway), THAT 'illusion' that 'seems to be true' or whatever - is not evidence of the truth of it.
The fact that people commonly believe it is not evidence - and so I need no reason TO dismiss it as an illusion. Just as I don't need evidence for an illusion of God being there for those who DO believe in "God". I assume it's an illusion to theists and a delusion to me because I know of no evidence! Same with free will! I don't need evidence FOR the illusion because the illusion to them itself is not remotely evidence or reason to believe whatsoever! And I know of no OTHER evidence or reason to believe either!
I can just dismiss it on the grounds of no evidence. It's an illusion to me because people believe it but I know of no evidence or reason to believe whatsoever! The illusion of it...the fact that people DO believe it is not remotely evidence of the truth of it - and I don't see how it's a reason to believe at all.
Quote:It seems to me that free will exists based on my own experience of life.So if you DON'T have free will what would have to be different for you to believe otherewise? What experience have you gained that makes you think "I choose these thoughts...." - you believe you do but how do you?
Quote:Experience is the only evidence I have and it seems strange that someone could argue so passionately against any degree of free will.
Strange maybe because it's so uncommon. I know you believe free will. But to me it seems the only reason I hear to believe free will is that they have 'experienced it' from you (well I experience life too you know - how would I tell the difference?? How do YOU tell the difference? What actual reason is there to believe it? - the belief itself isn't..that's circular reasoning).
But the only answer I seem to get from both others AND you is that the reason to believe in free will is that we commonly seem to THINK there is a reason and it's commonly believe so there must be reasoning there.....it 'seems' that way.
But that's not a reason because it's circular logic. Belief in free will=reason to believe in free will? And HOW CAN it 'seem' that way if you have no reason to believe it couldn't ''seem' that way' WITHOUT - free will and yet you still have no reason TO believe in free will (that I have heard of I mean).
Isn't the fact that it 'seems' that free will exist kind of similar to the fact that theists speak of how the intelligence and APPARENT designer of nature gives indication that God exists because it just 'seems' that way to them?
Belief is not evidence of the belief itself...that's circular.
I maintain that I know of no reason TO believe in 'free will' or any evidence of the truth of it whatsoever.
Quote:I'm going to start another thread for which there is no evidence and see where it goes.
Good luck
EvF
