On the subject of Hell and Salvation

[fredd bear]

I'm not trying to argue with you specifically, but I think the problem of evil and suffering is actually just as big an obstacle as accepting the evidence for the existence of God, because failure to solve the former results in a lack of motivation to do the latter. Not that that is any excuse, or even the reason why you can't accept the evidence.

Firstly, which evidence would that be, give your reasons why you consider something evidence other than saying 'it's obvious'. If someone came to you with radical and fantastic claims then said you should simply accept it because 'it's obvious'. would you consider that evidence or proof ?
Atheists tend not to have a problem of evil at all, it's only a problem when you claim a loving god at the same time.

The so called  problem of evil exists only because you are making the unproven claim of a god at the same time, therefore the existence of god needs to be proven first, before you can even have a problem of evil.  Do you have any actual proof ?

Epicurus was a fool, because he failed to understand that there is another option. God is both able and willing to prevent evil. So whence cometh evil? From God:

There's another simpler one which fits the facts perfectly, god does not exist and that people who believe he does are fools.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)

Again why do you trust words written by people who claimed to be inspired by a god, unless you can prove your god, what authority do they have ?  They are just stuff people wrote.

Does that make God evil? No. There's a difference between being evil and creating it. Being made in the image of God requires that we know good from evil. That's why this extremely important verse exists in Genesis:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil..." (Genesis 3:22)

Adam and Eve according to the myth, were made in the image of god, yet did not know what right or wrong was until after they had sinned. Otherwise how could they have 'become as one of us' ?  But again to give this any authority at all, we would first have to establish a god.

So we learn good from evil by doing evil things ourselves, and God brings evil upon us for committing evil deeds. That is why we suffer.

Or a much simpler explanation, there is no god and when we do bad stuff there is no cosmic plan to return evil to us, that's just the way it is because bad stuff happens all the time, the process requires no god whatsoever.

The reason why innocents suffer is difficult to accept, particularly from a carnal perspective. Here is one reason:

The most obvious being of course that people do bad stuff and there is no god

"You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on their children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me... (Deuteronomy 5:9)

And again with man written mythology, which if you are to claim any authority at all for you would first have to show the existence of an authority giver. Otherwise why treat it as anything more than the utterances of men ?  You seem very confused about this, you claim it's not really the scriptures themselves but some kind of revelation of the truth of scriptures, which has shown to you but have yet to show exist outside of your head.

Stop being so gullible as to believe religionists who believed there was a god and wrote about this stuff clumsily trying to explain it, i think it's incredible that people believe this is inspired in anyway when there are much more simple explanations, I suppose though if you already believe in a god you have to go to these lengths.  

The apple doesn't fall far from the tree, either. Evil parents beget evil children.

That is the first thing that bears any resemblance to reality you have said, well done. And all explained much more easily if there is no god.

In some if not most cases, children are spared being raised by those parents and the consequences that go along with all of that.

And do you really believe that this is avoided in most cases ?

Yes, sometimes it's better for them to die than to live. Many times I've cursed the day I was born, and I know I'd have been better off had I died as a child, before the sins of my fathers had fallen on me.

I'm really sorry you felt that way, it's easy to see why in such circumstances you may seek some kind of religious consolation.

The wrath of God is a terrible, terrible thing to behold. He does not tolerate wickedness.

And yet we see it all around us, again the more elegant explanation is simply there is no god.

You might ask what the point is in bringing wrath upon further generations.

well none really.

I will say this: many will be brought to repentance when they come to realize the devastation their sins have wrought. When parents realize what their wickedness has done to their children, when they come to know that they're the ones who brought evil upon themselves, they will know that all the suffering was not in vain. There's a point to it all.

It is true we learn when things go really wrong, no god needed though.  You don't need a god to realise you do things which are not considered good.

No one dies in vain, no one suffers pointlessly, no one suffers arbitrarily, because that isn't Who He is. He is perfectly just, perfectly righteous, perfectly wise.[/quote

There is absolutely no evidence that there is a reason for these things, to claim a reason demands evidence of a reason giver, again the better explanation being more simple, there is no god.

Not that I expect you all to accept this. It's just the truth.

And the cream on the cake.. simple assertion.

EDIT: Since animals were mentioned as part of this picture, I'll say that I don't see them playing a huge role. It's lamentable when they suffer needlessly at the hands of evil people, but they haven't been given minds like us, either, so it's not really the same. Nevertheless, their deaths are not in vain, either, because they help highlight our wickedness, something very necessary in the context of repentance. By the way, are you eating conventional beef or poultry? Any idea how much those animals suffer, and how you're contributing to their suffering by spending your dollars where they shouldn't be spent? Animals raised with organic farming practices are much better off, so perhaps you should consider buying organic meats (which are better for you anyway).

We eat animals because we eat animals, we are a species that as you have very well pointed out clearly does not mind doing so, we hide our morals on this matter or simply don't have any. But to claim a god as an excuse would of course demand proof of such a deity.
To believe even that a deity would be remotely interested in killing animals is silly beyond belief.

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Excellent post. 

Christians have had  2000 years  to explain the existence of evil and of suffering. They have not done so. Then some fool on an internet forum thinks he has the answer because he can quote scripture--to an atheist. 


I've read that a definition of insanity is repeating an action over and over and expecting a change.


Is it naivete, arrogance or ignorance which compels Christians to come to an atheist forum and argue "god did it" to a bunch of atheists? 

Have you ever been to a Christian forum? I have, a couple. I lasted less an hour before being banned. Seems  to me Christians are treated far better on our sites than we are on theirs