RE: Bible Study: The God who Lies and Deceives
May 9, 2019 at 9:21 am
(This post was last modified: May 9, 2019 at 9:56 am by Drich.)
(May 8, 2019 at 12:33 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Um no D, if one is to claim a God is "all powerful" then saying "cant" negates that power. For a God to be "all powerful" they have to be capable of lying to include any and all actions. Exclude an action, that puts a limit on the word "all".
The better argument, I'd make if I were still a theist would be, "He wouldn't do that, even though he can if he wants to".
But even then, you are stuck with "How would you know?" What methodology and control groups would help you objectively determine you've been told the truth by such a being?
He cant be "all powerful" if he is incapable of lying, even about an oath.
Did you stop reading once you ran out of highlighted words?
"Your argument is mine 'smart guy.' God can indeed lie if he wants... IF you where to read my post I go into detail stating that as the alpha and omega gives him the ability to lie.
If you are hung up with the highlighted portion about God is not able to lie under oath, know it is simply the hebrew writer observation that God has NEVER lied under oath. As verse 17 points out when he says something he is 100% intended to full fill he adds an oath to it.
Meaning when God is seen adding an oath to his already truful word he can not lie because it is his will to carry out what ever he said and the oath is the verification that what he said is indeed what will hapen per his want/will.
It is a bit short sighted to assume an Alpha and Omega God 'can't' for any other reason than it is not his will to limit himself.
Again point back to the stupid rock paradox "Can God create a rock so big he can not lift it?" The answer is Yes if God want to meaning if God wants to limit himself in physical strength his ability to create he could indeed create a rock so big he coud not lift it. like wise if he did not want to limit his physical strength but limit his ability to create the the answer would be the opposite. meaning an all powerful God has the ability to limit himself where ever the "F" he wants including NOT LYING UNDER OATH!
(May 8, 2019 at 1:22 pm)Smaug Wrote:(May 8, 2019 at 12:13 pm)Drich Wrote: Then yur next question is is God sinning when he lies?
No.
Why?
creator privilege.
....
Can God create a rock so big he can not lift it? yes if he wants to no if he does not.
Can God lie cheat and steal? yes if he wants to and no if he does not.
Can God set a standard for us to follow and he himself not be bound by the same standard? Again yes if he wants to and no if he does not. in the end we know he did.
It's like hearing a politician who forgot that the microphone is still on.
...meaning you get the truth, and not just the crap the church wants to spew from the pulpits on sunday... isn't that the point of this forum?
(May 8, 2019 at 1:49 pm)Brian37 Wrote:(May 8, 2019 at 1:44 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: I can honestly state that never, not ONCE, has God lied to me.
Boru
Me neither, but Yoda and Thor also have never lied to me either.
If you watched ESB Yoda lied to all of us when he kept kenobi's lie about anakin being separate from vader.
Thor lied to us in the mcu because he portrays himself as a God when in fact they create nothing, and he oden and all of asgard are nothing more than a invading species of alien.
If you watched the movies those characters lied to you.. their dialog was intended for your ears not that of their follow characters their screen time was for YOUR benefit... So if you saw those movies and follow the plot you where lied to.
Now if you take the same level of canonical material and apply it to what God said... No you have not been lied to.
(May 8, 2019 at 7:31 pm)Rhondazvous Wrote:(May 8, 2019 at 12:33 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Um no D, if one is to claim a God is "all powerful" then saying "cant" negates that power. For a God to be "all powerful" they have to be capable of lying to include any and all actions. Exclude an action, that puts a limit on the word "all".
The better argument, I'd make if I were still a theist would be, "He wouldn't do that, even though he can if he wants to".
But even then, you are stuck with "How would you know?" What methodology and control groups would help you objectively determine you've been told the truth by such a being?
He cant be "all powerful" if he is incapable of lying, even about an oath.
Catch 22.
If he can't lie then he'd not all powerful. Which means that he lied about being all powerful
maybe I'm guilty of assuming you guys can follow more than one arguement at a time.
My OP to you I refuted your reading of hebrews.
Then my second post denoted by the line:
I explain how an all powerful God being all powerful can indeed limit himself if he wants to... and as evidenced by the passage in hebrews, God does indeed elect to limit himself by not being able to break his own oaths.
(May 8, 2019 at 7:34 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote:(May 8, 2019 at 12:13 pm)Drich Wrote: So God said something would happen, and he proved what he said by adding an oath. 18 These two things cannot change: God cannot lie when he says something, and he cannot lie when he makes an oath.
...
So the question remains Can God lie? according to the passage in hebrews he will not lie under oath. can he lie not under oath? as you pointed out in the OT he indeed can if it suits him.
Then yur next question is is God sinning when he lies?
No.
Why?
creator privilege.
...
I think Drich probably has the Bible right here. It's not Drich's fault that's that's what it says. It's not God's fault either.
I think the problem is Christianity's PR department. They put out all this misinformation leading people to think that the Christian God is truthful by his very nature.
No, silly. That's only for oaths. LOL that your stupid ass fell for that schtick. There's a sucker born every minute, right? Read the fine print! There are caveats...
It's not just Yahweh's supposed truthfulness that gets the lawyer treatment from Christianity's PR department either. Do you think Christians really practice "Love your enemies." Well sure, in a way. But there are plenty of caveats there, too. The point is, if a Christian wants to hate their enemy, it isn't too hard for them to lawyer up a reason to make that hatred a-okay with God. Same goes with judgmentalism, vengeance, and, bearing false witness. To Christians, the commandments against these behaviors are more a set of advertising slogans than principles they genuinely live by. Again, read the fine print. There are caveats...
I agree to a degree.
We can and do al sorts of thing like hating our enmies (look at the US ISIS relationship under obama.) I don't see any love lost between the two. I can't imagine a christian in that region or in this inviting a hard core isis fighter into their home.
But at the same time it does not make it right.
however, 'we' Christians via Jesus and the bible are not called to live by a moral code either. The moral ode stuff is all man made religion/man's denominational beliefs.
God/Christ would have us live via love/agape'.
Meaning Our love for our families and neighbors would prevent us for putting them in danger's way by having a known murderer come into our home. To our love for our families and the people who live around us would keep us from putting one man's needs over that of our god given family's need.
So yes we can be nasty we can even go to war in light of the command to love our neighbor, but it is out of love and defense of our greater charge to love and protect our own that trumps the will of a people who would see us dead.
