(September 25, 2022 at 3:22 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:(September 25, 2022 at 3:09 pm)Leonardo17 Wrote: Beside all this: there are 3 orders to kill in the Kuran that I know of:.......seems like maybe three too many?
Quote:1) There is the story of the prophet Abraham who was sent a lamb by God so that he would offer the lamb to his deity and not his son. Personally I don’t even make sacrifices. I makes charity instead. But Yes, at the end of Ramadan and during the pilgrimage in Mecca offerings and made and the meat is distributed to the poor.I'm a super nerd. The charity side of the sacrificial operation is cool as fuck...but you do have to ask, why does god want you to kill an animal an offer it up?
Quote:2) War. Contrarily to popular belief holy war is a defensive issue. My current understanding is that only when the enemy comes to your door to kill and murder you, only than you have the right to take up arm and to defend yourself and your country. Otherwise all wars are nothing but mass murder. Again, the scholars that I am reading largely seem to support my view on this.Contrary to popular practice..you must mean? Here again, the question is why god would want you to kill another human being, too.
Quote:3) Terrorism, espionage, propagandists (The word used in the Kuran is “those who come to create serious trouble). In this case the order is to “look for them from every watch tower” to find them and to make them unable to hurt anyone (to kill them). Famous terrorists like Hassan Sabah existed in medieval times also. To deal with fanatics and real trouble makers you have no other solution. You have to do exactly what the CIA did to Osama Bin Laden. No more, no less)
Yeah..."kill the troublemakers"....aka...Just Three™ Orders to Kill.
So, according to god. Kill at least one animal as an offering, kill people who attack you, and kill people who make trouble for you. Seems like we've covered all possible killings to me, but meh. I suppose it would be too much to ask for a religion with a less bloodthirsty god. Can you imagine it? Author of creation, lord of the cosmos..just says "you know what guys? No killing, minimize the killing."
1) You mean the last two? - No
2) As I said. I am not a scholar. But Animal sacrifice is an old tradition. In ancient Greece there was the Hecatompedon festival in which scores of animals were butchered and the meat was simply burned. So maybe the message was “Ok just kill one or two, and give the meat to some people who can’t afford it”. But I also find the practice very bloody and useless in our days. I personally don’t consume too much animal protein either. Today we know that a plant-based diet is better for ourselves and the environment. So I chose to interpret this as a “give to the poor” order and I sort of try to follow it in my own way.
3) As I said. That was not the popular practice in the past. Ancient rulers used to follow Islamic teachings more seriously in the past (in the Middle Ages to renaissance past) and yes. Many of those rules were followed. Forced conversions did not exist. Pillaging and slavery had limits, rape (as far as I know) was forbidden. But this also has to be put in a context. Today we don’t mutilate people, raze cities to the ground, enslave entire cities, and catapult the heads of captive soldiers from above city walls. Today we have war crimes and some international rules of war. These are, in my opinion, to be interpreted as a preliminary chapter to this.
And as far as I know. War has to be a defensive war. But again I can’t really say this was always understood in this way in ancient times. But many of today’s serious scholars (the one’s that I read the most) agree on the fact that “no war that is not defensive in nature can be approved by the Kuran”. But if your very existence is threatened. That is if you are not the aggressor. Than is becomes a divine order to go to war.
So war is something that is not approved by God. But if your are the defending side, it becomes an order of God.
4) Yes. If your are dealing with serious terrorists or similar troublemakers. Say, fanatical / brainwashed indoctrinated people of any school. I don’t believe there’s another solution. So the book is sort of giving a license to be tough on those people.
- We don’t live are a beautifully ordered world now do we? So of course there can be instances in which we have to kill. That’s what they teach in martial arts too. “Stay away as much as you can. But if you can’t, than hit fast and hit them good” (That’s what my Taekwando teacher used to tell me). Do you not agree with this?
