1.) What are the best positions/attributes a Christian could have and still want to call herself a Christian?
2.) Have you ever met a Christian that met your ideal? (If not, are there any fairly famous ones you suspect might?)
3.) How fond/approving of such a Christian could you be? Would you be happy to have one: .. move next door? .. become a fishing buddy? .. marry your daughter?! .. marry you?!?!
My turn.
1.) My ideal Christian reads the bible as allegory, finding truth and wisdom in much of it. She also finds truth and wisdom in the holy books of other traditions, in poetry and in many novels. She understands that the origins of the bible are murky and that it was authored by men. It was inspired in places as were many of those other books she is so fond of. She would tell you the bible is not a "how to" book for living a good life, though it does contain some good insights.
My ideal Christian accepts that she has no objective evidence for the existence of God. So she is an agnostic theist. She is as certain that God exists as I am that He does not because it helps her makes sense of her personal experience of the world and herself. She doesn't proselytize because she understands that what makes sense for herself may or may not for others. She does not feel any obligation to win others over to Christianity because there is nothing she finds in the bible that she interprets as prescriptive and plenty that she rejects outright. She does however share what has been meaningful to her when asked or when others seem not to be finding any of their own.
She enjoys keeping up with science and delights in learning new things about "the great unfoldment" (aka "creation"). [The notion of a grand watch maker seems as ludicrous to her as to us.] Naturally Genesis is allegory and the bible is a poor choice as a reference for empirical facts.
Heaven and hell make allegorical sense to her as states we can achieve in our lives here and now. An after life makes little sense to her now. When she was younger, she imagined that she would continue on as she is in some spiritual body in God's company when she died. Looking back she recognizes that as the only way she had at the time to make sense of it all. Now she would tell you that God is both more complex and more simple than a person. When she a little younger she thought that God had actually taken human form in the person of Jesus and that had led her to imagine having human like conversations with God. She now thinks Jesus was a human with great insight whose words and history have been distorted. Her mature, adult understanding of Jesus is in accord with that of Rex Weylor's book on the only actual sayings attributed directly to Jesus:
When Jesus said "I am the way" this, by way of his example, is what he meant.
2.) I have not met my ideal christian but held many of these positions myself on my way out of being one.
Bill Moyers is a Christian I'd like to know better.
3.) Bill Moyers is welcome to move next door. And the lady I described above would make a welcome addition to the family if my stepson should happen to meet her. For myself, I'm happily married to a lifelong atheist who was raised in no religion and doesn't understand what all the fuss is about. When all the anti-gay defining of marriage came up, we both wanted a new term for our relationship. If the contract we obtained from the government was really a religious relic, we got hornswoggled and tricked into something we did not ask for. We'd like to have something secular damn it.
2.) Have you ever met a Christian that met your ideal? (If not, are there any fairly famous ones you suspect might?)
3.) How fond/approving of such a Christian could you be? Would you be happy to have one: .. move next door? .. become a fishing buddy? .. marry your daughter?! .. marry you?!?!
My turn.
1.) My ideal Christian reads the bible as allegory, finding truth and wisdom in much of it. She also finds truth and wisdom in the holy books of other traditions, in poetry and in many novels. She understands that the origins of the bible are murky and that it was authored by men. It was inspired in places as were many of those other books she is so fond of. She would tell you the bible is not a "how to" book for living a good life, though it does contain some good insights.
My ideal Christian accepts that she has no objective evidence for the existence of God. So she is an agnostic theist. She is as certain that God exists as I am that He does not because it helps her makes sense of her personal experience of the world and herself. She doesn't proselytize because she understands that what makes sense for herself may or may not for others. She does not feel any obligation to win others over to Christianity because there is nothing she finds in the bible that she interprets as prescriptive and plenty that she rejects outright. She does however share what has been meaningful to her when asked or when others seem not to be finding any of their own.
She enjoys keeping up with science and delights in learning new things about "the great unfoldment" (aka "creation"). [The notion of a grand watch maker seems as ludicrous to her as to us.] Naturally Genesis is allegory and the bible is a poor choice as a reference for empirical facts.
Heaven and hell make allegorical sense to her as states we can achieve in our lives here and now. An after life makes little sense to her now. When she was younger, she imagined that she would continue on as she is in some spiritual body in God's company when she died. Looking back she recognizes that as the only way she had at the time to make sense of it all. Now she would tell you that God is both more complex and more simple than a person. When she a little younger she thought that God had actually taken human form in the person of Jesus and that had led her to imagine having human like conversations with God. She now thinks Jesus was a human with great insight whose words and history have been distorted. Her mature, adult understanding of Jesus is in accord with that of Rex Weylor's book on the only actual sayings attributed directly to Jesus:
Quote:Seek the truth
There is a light within; look and you will find it.
Know yourself.
When you find he light within, share it with the world.
A divine kingdom is within you and all around you.
Speak out, teach others about this kingdom.
This kingdom is like a small seed that grows.
It is like leaven in bread, a tiny force that affects everything.
Observe the world before you, here and now.
Commit fully now.
Act on your knowledge.
Your understanding is revealed in the fruits of your actions.
Be generous and merciful.
Share what you have with others.
Help the poor, hungry, and grieving, and those who have no home.
Don't worry about your own comforts.
Your poverty and sadness bring you closer to the divine kingdom.
Remain humble, don’t exalt yourself.
Don’t judge others, but improve yourself
Be as a child, open, curious, authentic, and modest.
Love your enemies and those that rebuke you.
Otherwise, avoid rules and follow the truth you discover yourself.
Act from awareness, not habit or convention.
Don’t blindly repeat rituals.
Don’t trust those with spiritual pretensions.
Question those who presume to speak for God.
If you have two good ears, listen to what I am telling you.
When Jesus said "I am the way" this, by way of his example, is what he meant.
2.) I have not met my ideal christian but held many of these positions myself on my way out of being one.
Bill Moyers is a Christian I'd like to know better.
3.) Bill Moyers is welcome to move next door. And the lady I described above would make a welcome addition to the family if my stepson should happen to meet her. For myself, I'm happily married to a lifelong atheist who was raised in no religion and doesn't understand what all the fuss is about. When all the anti-gay defining of marriage came up, we both wanted a new term for our relationship. If the contract we obtained from the government was really a religious relic, we got hornswoggled and tricked into something we did not ask for. We'd like to have something secular damn it.
