Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: July 24, 2025, 4:56 pm

Thread Rating:
  • 1 Vote(s) - 1 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
[split] Are Questions About God Important?
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important?
Hi Grand Nudger,

I know I’m a day late and a dollar short so ignore me if you want.

TL;DR: (Though I hope you do read it) God wants and commands what is best for us. It is good for us because it fits with how He made us. He can’t command something that violates His reason because His intellect is perfect.

(November 30, 2023 at 9:12 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I don't get it, for me this is super softball.  OFC "devil stuff" wouldn't be worthwhile, perfect, or true just because it came out of a gods wherever - but that does mean that coming out of gods wherever is not the worthwhile/perfect/truth-making property.  Hell, if it was "devil stuff" coming out of gods wherever, not only would you reject the consequences of your rule...you wouldn't even call it a god anymore.  You seem to realize that something is askance.  What's stopping us from stepping back and correcting a statement about what we -actually- believe, since it's not really what we just said we believed?
Confused-by-christianity is doing a good job here, but the Euthyphro dilemma is hard. I would like to support him by adding to the discussion.

The Grand Nudger’s question is trying to get at why something is good? Let’s be honest and say that while Plato may have honestly asked the question, I’d be very surprised if the Grand Nudger is doing it for any other reason than as a trap. But no worries, it’s a good question. Interesting to think about.

Following theologian and apologist, Karlo Broussard, I think we can summarize what the Big Nudge :-) is trying to say with three premises.

First, he says, “Are these things worthy because they shine out of gods wherever, or do they shine out of gods wherever because they are worthy?” The word “worthy” here is being used as a substitute for the word “good.” The statement is usually stated as “Is an action good because God commands it, or does God command an action because it’s already good?” Thus I would state the first premise as

1) Either an action is good because God commands it, or God commands an action because it’s already good.

Then he plays the gotcha and says “if badness, hate, falsity, ugliness, vacuity, and cowardice were what was shining out of gods wherever.. those things would be the set of the worthwhile.” He wants us to say, "well, I guess they would be worthwhile." It’s a gotcha because it makes the goodness of God into an arbitrary thing. To a theist it’s a logical contradiction, which is what Confused-by-christianity was pointing out. Let’s say the second premise as

2) If an action is good because God commands it, then God could arbitrarily command any evil act (like “curbstomping infants”), and that act would be good, which is absurd.

He also “wins” if we say that it’s not worthwhile just because God commands it. That means (at the surface) that there is a criteria for goodness independent of God, which a theist would not hold. Let’s say the third premise as

3) If God commands an action because it’s already good, then there is a standard of goodness independent of God, in which case God is not necessary for morality.

Conclusion: Since a theist can hold neither option, it follows that a theist’s claim that God is necessary for morality is undermined.

[Grand Nudger, if I have stated these wrong, please correct. Don’t rant yet, though. Give me time to update my logic.]

Since this post is long, we’ll only look at the third premise. If someone wants to consider the second, let me know.

I do not have any problem affirming that God commands an action because it’s good. The fallacy here is in the way of thinking what good is.

Because what is good and bad for human beings is determined by the ends set for us by nature. Any behavior that facilitates the achievement of our natural ends is considered good. If it frustrates those ends, then it is considered bad. For example, the way we were created/evolved says that drinking water is a good because it preserves our life. Procreation and rearing kittens are good for cats because they preserve the species.

And so, yes! God commands all actions that facilitate the achievement of our natural ends. Those actions he is commanding are good. He prohibits actions that frustrate those ends, “bad things, man.”

In summary, for premise 3, since human nature determines what is good and bad for us, and since God is the author of our nature, affirming that God commands something because it is good does not imply a standard of goodness independent of God.



Messages In This Thread
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - November 30, 2023 at 8:31 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - November 30, 2023 at 10:27 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - December 1, 2023 at 7:16 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Silver - November 28, 2023 at 11:51 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - November 29, 2023 at 9:10 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - November 29, 2023 at 9:15 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - November 29, 2023 at 9:35 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - November 29, 2023 at 8:28 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - November 29, 2023 at 9:29 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - November 29, 2023 at 10:17 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Bucky Ball - November 29, 2023 at 11:00 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - November 30, 2023 at 5:53 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Bucky Ball - November 30, 2023 at 12:13 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - November 30, 2023 at 12:38 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - November 30, 2023 at 8:31 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Deesse23 - December 1, 2023 at 3:12 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - November 30, 2023 at 8:59 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - November 30, 2023 at 9:01 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Angrboda - November 30, 2023 at 11:50 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - November 30, 2023 at 11:53 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - November 30, 2023 at 11:58 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - November 30, 2023 at 1:52 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Silver - November 30, 2023 at 1:55 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Belacqua - December 5, 2023 at 4:03 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - November 30, 2023 at 3:24 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by brewer - November 30, 2023 at 7:35 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by brewer - November 30, 2023 at 11:36 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - December 1, 2023 at 12:14 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by no one - December 1, 2023 at 8:09 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by no one - December 1, 2023 at 10:26 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Silver - December 1, 2023 at 10:44 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - December 1, 2023 at 11:02 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - December 1, 2023 at 11:06 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - December 1, 2023 at 2:37 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - December 1, 2023 at 2:52 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - December 1, 2023 at 3:55 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - December 1, 2023 at 5:39 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - December 1, 2023 at 5:40 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - December 1, 2023 at 5:43 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - December 1, 2023 at 5:57 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - December 1, 2023 at 6:30 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - December 1, 2023 at 6:40 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - December 1, 2023 at 6:48 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Silver - December 1, 2023 at 1:43 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - December 1, 2023 at 6:43 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - December 1, 2023 at 7:03 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - December 1, 2023 at 7:13 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - December 1, 2023 at 7:26 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - December 1, 2023 at 7:49 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - December 2, 2023 at 12:09 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Belacqua - December 2, 2023 at 2:36 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - December 3, 2023 at 5:05 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - December 1, 2023 at 7:16 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - December 1, 2023 at 7:42 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by no one - December 1, 2023 at 9:31 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by no one - December 2, 2023 at 8:40 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - December 2, 2023 at 12:31 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - December 3, 2023 at 5:07 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - December 3, 2023 at 6:30 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - December 3, 2023 at 7:06 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Silver - December 2, 2023 at 12:42 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - December 2, 2023 at 12:45 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by brewer - December 3, 2023 at 5:36 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Silver - December 4, 2023 at 12:07 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - December 2, 2023 at 7:43 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - December 3, 2023 at 7:10 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - December 4, 2023 at 6:24 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by SimpleCaveman - December 2, 2023 at 2:49 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Angrboda - December 2, 2023 at 3:45 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Angrboda - December 3, 2023 at 1:36 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by no one - December 4, 2023 at 7:16 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Belacqua - December 4, 2023 at 8:47 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Belacqua - December 4, 2023 at 9:05 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - December 4, 2023 at 11:00 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by no one - December 4, 2023 at 9:12 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Belacqua - December 4, 2023 at 9:41 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by no one - December 4, 2023 at 11:39 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - December 4, 2023 at 12:24 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by no one - December 4, 2023 at 12:59 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - December 4, 2023 at 8:36 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - December 4, 2023 at 8:42 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - December 5, 2023 at 1:52 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - December 4, 2023 at 8:51 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by brewer - December 4, 2023 at 10:25 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - December 4, 2023 at 10:57 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - December 5, 2023 at 7:13 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - December 5, 2023 at 10:59 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - December 5, 2023 at 5:45 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - December 5, 2023 at 5:44 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - December 5, 2023 at 6:58 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - December 6, 2023 at 6:59 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Deesse23 - December 6, 2023 at 8:23 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - December 6, 2023 at 9:40 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - December 6, 2023 at 10:22 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - December 6, 2023 at 10:45 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - December 6, 2023 at 11:16 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - December 6, 2023 at 11:37 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Deesse23 - December 7, 2023 at 3:34 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Deesse23 - December 7, 2023 at 7:17 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - December 5, 2023 at 7:02 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - December 5, 2023 at 7:53 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - December 5, 2023 at 8:14 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - December 6, 2023 at 10:27 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - December 5, 2023 at 7:26 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - December 5, 2023 at 8:07 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Belacqua - December 5, 2023 at 8:56 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Belacqua - December 5, 2023 at 9:25 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Belacqua - December 5, 2023 at 8:52 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - December 5, 2023 at 9:39 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - December 5, 2023 at 9:55 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by brewer - December 5, 2023 at 2:05 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - December 5, 2023 at 11:01 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - December 5, 2023 at 11:50 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Angrboda - December 5, 2023 at 5:24 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - December 5, 2023 at 5:46 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by no one - December 5, 2023 at 9:28 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - December 5, 2023 at 4:32 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by no one - December 6, 2023 at 8:40 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - December 6, 2023 at 10:31 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by no one - December 6, 2023 at 10:51 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by no one - December 6, 2023 at 9:24 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - December 7, 2023 at 8:44 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - December 7, 2023 at 8:47 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - December 7, 2023 at 8:48 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by no one - December 7, 2023 at 8:06 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by no one - December 7, 2023 at 8:16 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - December 7, 2023 at 8:54 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - December 7, 2023 at 9:02 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - December 7, 2023 at 9:17 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - December 7, 2023 at 9:23 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - December 7, 2023 at 9:27 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - December 7, 2023 at 9:33 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Belacqua - December 7, 2023 at 8:57 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - December 7, 2023 at 9:05 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - December 7, 2023 at 9:06 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - December 7, 2023 at 11:07 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - December 7, 2023 at 11:57 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - December 7, 2023 at 3:18 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - December 7, 2023 at 3:27 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by h4ym4n - December 7, 2023 at 3:56 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Silver - December 9, 2023 at 12:36 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Angrboda - December 7, 2023 at 12:28 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by no one - December 7, 2023 at 2:59 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by no one - December 7, 2023 at 5:43 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Angrboda - December 7, 2023 at 8:19 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - December 7, 2023 at 8:28 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Angrboda - December 7, 2023 at 8:30 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - December 7, 2023 at 9:49 pm
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - December 8, 2023 at 12:11 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - December 8, 2023 at 1:11 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Ahriman - December 8, 2023 at 10:33 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by no one - December 8, 2023 at 10:40 am
RE: [split] Are Questions About God Important? - by Angrboda - December 9, 2023 at 9:44 pm
RE: Hello to all - by Istvan - November 28, 2023 at 9:02 am
RE: Hello to all - by Confused-by-christianity - November 28, 2023 at 9:14 am
RE: Hello to all - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - November 28, 2023 at 3:47 pm
RE: Hello to all - by zebo-the-fat - November 28, 2023 at 4:43 pm
RE: Hello to all - by SimpleCaveman - November 29, 2023 at 4:25 pm
RE: Hello to all - by Fake Messiah - November 29, 2023 at 4:44 pm
RE: Hello to all - by SimpleCaveman - November 29, 2023 at 5:02 pm
RE: Hello to all - by Fake Messiah - November 29, 2023 at 5:07 pm
RE: Hello to all - by SimpleCaveman - December 2, 2023 at 2:26 pm
RE: Hello to all - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - November 29, 2023 at 7:51 pm
RE: Hello to all - by brewer - November 29, 2023 at 10:45 pm
RE: Hello to all - by Confused-by-christianity - November 30, 2023 at 6:09 pm
RE: Hello to all - by Anomalocaris - November 28, 2023 at 4:42 pm
RE: Hello to all - by Gawdzilla Sama - November 29, 2023 at 1:59 am
RE: Hello to all - by Istvan - November 28, 2023 at 9:20 am
RE: Hello to all - by Confused-by-christianity - November 28, 2023 at 9:22 am
RE: Hello to all - by Astreja - November 28, 2023 at 7:23 pm
RE: Hello to all - by Confused-by-christianity - November 30, 2023 at 6:25 pm
RE: Hello to all - by Astreja - November 30, 2023 at 8:42 pm
RE: Hello to all - by The Grand Nudger - November 28, 2023 at 10:10 am
RE: Hello to all - by Mister Agenda - November 28, 2023 at 10:18 am
RE: Hello to all - by The Grand Nudger - November 28, 2023 at 10:21 am
RE: Hello to all - by Confused-by-christianity - November 28, 2023 at 10:34 am

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Three Questions for God Time Traveler 123 27187 April 29, 2016 at 7:33 pm
Last Post: Cyberman
  [split] Big Announcement and Invitation LastPoet 77 16071 May 24, 2015 at 9:24 pm
Last Post: Randy Carson
  [split] Hello everyone Chili 204 49851 January 5, 2015 at 12:04 pm
Last Post: dyresand
  General questions about the Christian idea of God and love Mudhammam 148 37489 October 2, 2014 at 9:16 am
Last Post: Tonus
  Why knocking is so important. Drich 565 114518 September 4, 2014 at 11:30 am
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  God is god, and we are not god StoryBook 43 15571 January 6, 2014 at 5:47 pm
Last Post: StoryBook
  The most important reason I'm xtian Jacob(smooth) 64 20007 December 11, 2013 at 6:05 am
Last Post: Jacob(smooth)
  [split] Better reasons to quit Christianity radorth 10 6141 April 7, 2013 at 7:33 pm
Last Post: ThomM
  Why is faith important? Question Mark 120 43583 March 19, 2013 at 4:51 pm
Last Post: Baalzebutt
  [split] Debunking Christianity? And Boris Spacek raised the dead... Boris Spacek 18 11196 April 6, 2012 at 5:22 am
Last Post: Oldandeasilyconfused



Users browsing this thread: 4 Guest(s)