Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: August 8, 2026, 2:49 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
The Kalam Cosmological argument.
#19
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument.
(January 6, 2024 at 6:05 am)JJoseph Wrote: Hi Bel. Ok. Let them research and see whether or not the Universe had a beginning.

Open Source Wikipedia says: "According to the Big Bang models, the universe at the beginning was very hot and very compact, and since then it has been expanding and cooling." The Universe certainly had a beginning. I am aware for a while they said it was around 13.5 BN years ago, now they're saying somewhere double of that, around 26 BN years ago. So be it. What existed 30 BN years ago, then?

If nothing, then ex nihil, nihil fit, which means, out of nothing, nothing comes, then even now, nothing would exist.
Therefore, it isn't true that nothing ever existed. What is true is that, nothing material existed then. And therefore ...

Saint Thomas Aquinas: "Therefore, if everything is possible not to be, then at one time there could have been nothing in existence. Now if this were true, even now there would be nothing in existence, because that which does not exist only begins to exist by something already existing."

Yeah, the physicists I've read on the topic seem ambiguous at best. When they say that "something" has come from "nothing," it always turns out that the "nothing" was really something. For example, the laws of nature were just hanging around in such a way that the Big Bang could get up and running. But to me, the laws of nature are something, not nothing. Krauss's book is really bad on this. "We don't know" seems like the best conclusion so far.

So when people talk about the Big Bang as the beginning, it may be that they mean the beginning of the universe as it now exists -- not the beginning of everything. Which doesn't rule out a God-like creator. Though of course none of the science-only people will be happy with that explanation. 

Part of the problem with discussions like this is that so many people think of God as being thing-like. A physically existing thing which we could find if we knew where to look, which ought to be detectable by science. Of course the God of the A/T version is nothing like that. (I don't know what Kalam posits -- as you know it has supporters among both Christians and Muslims, but I don't think Kalam alone is sufficient to get us to the God of the Bible or of the Koran.)
Reply



Messages In This Thread
The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by JJoseph - January 6, 2024 at 4:23 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by no one - January 6, 2024 at 4:31 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by JJoseph - January 6, 2024 at 4:42 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Angrboda - January 6, 2024 at 12:15 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by neil - January 6, 2024 at 4:46 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by JJoseph - January 6, 2024 at 5:47 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by neil - January 6, 2024 at 6:02 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by zebo-the-fat - January 6, 2024 at 6:09 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Angrboda - January 6, 2024 at 12:19 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Pat Mustard - January 8, 2024 at 6:40 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by no one - January 6, 2024 at 5:20 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Angrboda - January 6, 2024 at 12:16 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by zebo-the-fat - January 6, 2024 at 5:32 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Belacqua - January 6, 2024 at 5:50 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by JJoseph - January 6, 2024 at 6:05 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Belacqua - January 6, 2024 at 6:45 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by JJoseph - January 6, 2024 at 6:08 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by neil - January 6, 2024 at 6:23 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Astreja - January 6, 2024 at 10:24 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Jackalope - January 7, 2024 at 12:38 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by brewer - January 7, 2024 at 9:45 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by JJoseph - January 6, 2024 at 6:14 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Pat Mustard - January 8, 2024 at 6:45 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by no one - January 6, 2024 at 6:18 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Deesse23 - January 6, 2024 at 6:58 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Fake Messiah - January 6, 2024 at 7:01 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by JJoseph - January 6, 2024 at 7:44 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Fake Messiah - January 6, 2024 at 8:27 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Angrboda - January 6, 2024 at 12:29 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by brewer - January 6, 2024 at 8:36 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by no one - January 6, 2024 at 8:43 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by JJoseph - January 6, 2024 at 8:49 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Pat Mustard - January 8, 2024 at 6:49 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by JJoseph - January 6, 2024 at 8:48 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Fake Messiah - January 6, 2024 at 8:53 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by zebo-the-fat - January 6, 2024 at 8:54 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by brewer - January 6, 2024 at 8:59 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by no one - January 6, 2024 at 8:53 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by no one - January 6, 2024 at 8:58 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by JJoseph - January 6, 2024 at 9:13 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Deesse23 - January 6, 2024 at 9:24 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by brewer - January 6, 2024 at 9:37 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by zebo-the-fat - January 6, 2024 at 9:44 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by no one - January 6, 2024 at 9:15 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by JJoseph - January 6, 2024 at 9:31 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Deesse23 - January 6, 2024 at 11:46 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by no one - January 6, 2024 at 9:35 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by no one - January 6, 2024 at 9:36 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by no one - January 6, 2024 at 9:39 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Istvan - January 6, 2024 at 10:21 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Pat Mustard - January 9, 2024 at 1:41 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Angrboda - January 9, 2024 at 1:49 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by awty - January 6, 2024 at 10:54 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by neil - January 6, 2024 at 11:24 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Paraselene - January 6, 2024 at 11:03 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by The Grand Nudger - January 6, 2024 at 11:14 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by The Grand Nudger - January 6, 2024 at 12:05 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by no one - January 6, 2024 at 12:31 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Nay_Sayer - January 6, 2024 at 12:40 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Pat Mustard - January 9, 2024 at 2:02 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Nay_Sayer - January 9, 2024 at 2:10 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by JJoseph - January 6, 2024 at 1:05 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Angrboda - January 6, 2024 at 1:18 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Fake Messiah - January 6, 2024 at 1:24 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Mister Agenda - January 6, 2024 at 2:17 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by JJoseph - January 7, 2024 at 10:30 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Nay_Sayer - January 6, 2024 at 4:59 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by no one - January 7, 2024 at 4:02 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by no one - January 7, 2024 at 10:11 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by JJoseph - January 7, 2024 at 10:20 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Angrboda - January 7, 2024 at 12:10 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Fake Messiah - January 7, 2024 at 12:43 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by JJoseph - January 7, 2024 at 1:20 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Fake Messiah - January 7, 2024 at 1:40 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Angrboda - January 7, 2024 at 2:09 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Thumpalumpacus - January 7, 2024 at 4:07 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by no one - January 7, 2024 at 10:24 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by JJoseph - January 7, 2024 at 10:31 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by h4ym4n - January 7, 2024 at 10:55 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by zebo-the-fat - January 7, 2024 at 10:37 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by no one - January 7, 2024 at 10:39 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by brewer - January 7, 2024 at 11:01 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - January 7, 2024 at 11:45 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Thumpalumpacus - January 7, 2024 at 12:51 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Deesse23 - January 7, 2024 at 1:29 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by no one - January 7, 2024 at 1:18 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Anomalocaris - January 7, 2024 at 1:21 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by no one - January 7, 2024 at 1:24 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Nay_Sayer - January 7, 2024 at 1:32 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Pat Mustard - January 9, 2024 at 2:10 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by no one - January 7, 2024 at 1:32 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Anomalocaris - January 7, 2024 at 2:05 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Fake Messiah - January 9, 2024 at 3:08 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by no one - January 7, 2024 at 2:06 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by The Grand Nudger - January 7, 2024 at 2:29 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Angrboda - January 7, 2024 at 2:35 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Astreja - January 7, 2024 at 2:54 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Nay_Sayer - January 7, 2024 at 3:32 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Paraselene - January 7, 2024 at 3:34 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by The Valkyrie - January 7, 2024 at 8:10 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Simon Moon - January 8, 2024 at 12:59 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Simon Moon - January 8, 2024 at 1:00 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Pat Mustard - January 8, 2024 at 6:32 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by JJoseph - January 8, 2024 at 8:27 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Pat Mustard - January 9, 2024 at 2:14 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Astreja - January 9, 2024 at 4:19 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Pat Mustard - January 9, 2024 at 6:08 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by The Grand Nudger - January 8, 2024 at 8:29 pm
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by no one - January 9, 2024 at 4:13 am
RE: The Kalam Cosmological argument. - by Astreja - January 10, 2024 at 12:38 am

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  A 21st Century Ontological Argument: does it work. JJoseph 23 6753 January 9, 2024 at 8:10 pm
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  Conscience and the Moral Argument as Evidence for the Goodness of God. Nishant Xavier 162 38487 July 9, 2023 at 7:53 am
Last Post: Deesse23
  Is the Argument from Degrees contradictory to the 3rd Law of Thermodynamics? FlatAssembler 49 11375 June 26, 2023 at 6:59 pm
Last Post: Belacqua
  Is my argument against afterlife an equivocation fallacy? FlatAssembler 61 14519 June 20, 2023 at 5:59 pm
Last Post: BrianSoddingBoru4
  A simple argument against God Disagreeable 149 40529 December 29, 2022 at 11:59 am
Last Post: Mister Agenda
  My Almighty VS your argument against it Won2blv 43 11223 May 5, 2022 at 9:13 am
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ? R00tKiT 225 60114 April 17, 2022 at 2:11 am
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  What is the best counter argument against "What do you lose by believing?" Macoleco 25 5270 May 1, 2021 at 8:05 pm
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  The Watchmaker: my fav argument zwanzig 672 189168 March 31, 2021 at 11:34 am
Last Post: John 6IX Breezy
  How may one refute the religious stonewall argument "all is one"? Osopatata 29 6997 December 21, 2020 at 4:05 pm
Last Post: HappySkeptic



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)