You did say there were Jews in the 11th Century BC,
If the Jews didn't exist, how could they have worshipped Baal? (Asherah in the 9th Century though, the Queen of Heaven....wheither she was worshipped or merely acknowledged is another thing.)
Good point.
He was the King of Israel, the first historical king that we have a mention of c. 9th Century BC. He could even be the actual founder of the Kingdom, not enough sources though to be sure.
Apparantly though they originally came as migrant workers (or the 2nd Millenium BC equivalent). I shouldn't have said slaves, must have been a Freudian slip, ya know with the whole 'Let my people go!' thing swirling around in my subconscious.
I advised AngelaRachnid to study these guys because the ruled the Nile Delta, which is first port of call when searching for the pre-Israelite Hebrew peoples in the Sinai region.
No Israel in 11th Century, sorry, only 9th and maybe 10th. And I was using the title Jew to describe Israelites (citizens of the kingdom, how Jews would describe themselves) as opposed to pre-Israelite Hebrews (their tribal affiliation)
I didn't say a word about them. All I said, to AngelaRachnid, who was asking for further information regarding the pre-Israelite Hebraic peoples,
I may have called them a slave race, because a modern socio-ecenomic disignation just wouldn't fit. If I where to use modern classifications then I would say the Hapiru were; working class, criminal-underclass, ghettoised-racial underclass etc.
Hapiru was basically another word for "dog" in Egypt. And I'm pretty sure those smelly Hebrews would be included (although along with others). Not only that but the Hapiru led revolts in the Palestine area against Egyptian rule during the invasions of the Sea Peoples. This occured immediately prior to the formation of the Kingdom of Israel, so that's definately worth a mention.
Further detail can be found in the Amarna letters, for example one letter by the Egyptian govenor of Jerusalem to the Pharoah regarding the Habiru who are plundering his lands,
Scary stuff, but definately required reading if you're searching for information on the Hebrews.
That's very simplistic, it's like saying the French came out of the existing Germans. Canaan isn't an ethnic term, it refers to the Levant area; modern Lebanon, Israel, Palestine, Sinai, up into the borders of Egypt. Many peoples of different ethnicity, culture and political and tribal affiliation lived in that land.
The Canaanites were considered famous merchants from an early time, so obviously they lend themselves to the Phoenician kingdoms which were contemporous with Israel. The Jews even used to use the word Canaanite when referring to merchants.
linky
There is a lot more going for the Phoenician - Canaanite theory, but you're a big boy and you can research for yourself.
I never said they had came out from Egypt. Although consideringthe area was under Egyptian rule at the time......
You also can't say all Canaanites believed in the same gods, even from city to city religious beliefs changed. Bronze Age religion is a multi-headed hydra, and no two regions had the same set of beliefs or rituals (although certain rituals are near universal throughout the world, for very different reasons than ethnicity)
Well, provide evidence, in the mean time, I'll make the case that Ba'al is not a Sun God.
Shapash is the Canaanite Goddess of the Sun.....so that means Baal isn't.
Looks like your over a century late with that whole sun-god theory.
Quote:The Jews did believe in YHWH and it appears from 11th century drawings YHWH was worshipped along side Baal and Ashera.
If the Jews didn't exist, how could they have worshipped Baal? (Asherah in the 9th Century though, the Queen of Heaven....wheither she was worshipped or merely acknowledged is another thing.)
Quote:My claim comes from a drawing
Good point.
Quote:Omri was an Amorite.
He was the King of Israel, the first historical king that we have a mention of c. 9th Century BC. He could even be the actual founder of the Kingdom, not enough sources though to be sure.
Quote:The Hyksos were not slaves, they were rulers.
Apparantly though they originally came as migrant workers (or the 2nd Millenium BC equivalent). I shouldn't have said slaves, must have been a Freudian slip, ya know with the whole 'Let my people go!' thing swirling around in my subconscious.
I advised AngelaRachnid to study these guys because the ruled the Nile Delta, which is first port of call when searching for the pre-Israelite Hebrew peoples in the Sinai region.
Quote:While references to Israel exist in 11th century, there is no reference to Jews or a specific Jewish religion.
No Israel in 11th Century, sorry, only 9th and maybe 10th. And I was using the title Jew to describe Israelites (citizens of the kingdom, how Jews would describe themselves) as opposed to pre-Israelite Hebrews (their tribal affiliation)
Quote:The Hapriu were wondering nomads. No one knows for certain who or what they were, so I won't pretend to and neither should you.
I didn't say a word about them. All I said, to AngelaRachnid, who was asking for further information regarding the pre-Israelite Hebraic peoples,
Quote:look for the Hapiru.
I may have called them a slave race, because a modern socio-ecenomic disignation just wouldn't fit. If I where to use modern classifications then I would say the Hapiru were; working class, criminal-underclass, ghettoised-racial underclass etc.
Hapiru was basically another word for "dog" in Egypt. And I'm pretty sure those smelly Hebrews would be included (although along with others). Not only that but the Hapiru led revolts in the Palestine area against Egyptian rule during the invasions of the Sea Peoples. This occured immediately prior to the formation of the Kingdom of Israel, so that's definately worth a mention.
Further detail can be found in the Amarna letters, for example one letter by the Egyptian govenor of Jerusalem to the Pharoah regarding the Habiru who are plundering his lands,
Quote:' Behold, neither my father nor my mother has put me in this place. The mighty hand of the king has led me into the house of my father. Why should I practice mischief against the king, the Lord? As long as the king, my lord, lives I will say to the deputy of the king, [my] lo[rd]: `Why do you love the Habiru, and hate the regents?' But therefore am I slandered before the king, my lord. Because I say: `The lands of the king, my lord, are lost,'
hostility has become mighty against me, and so I cannot come to the king, my lord. So, let it seem right to the king to send a garrison, and I will enter and see the two e[yes] of the king, my lord. So long as the king, [my] lor[d] lives, so long as de[puties] go forth, I will say: `The lands of the king are going to ruin.' (But) you do not listen to me. All rgents are lost; there remains not a regent to the king, the lord. Let the king turn his attention to the archers so that archers of the king, my lord, will go forth. No lands of the king remain. The Habiru plunder all lands of the king. If archers are here this year, then the lands of the king, the lord, will remain; but if archers are not here, then the lands of the king, the lord, are lost. [T]o the scribe of the king, my lord, thus saith Abdi-Heba, thy servant: Bring words, plainly, before the king, my lord: [A]ll the lands of the king, my lord, are going to ruin."
Scary stuff, but definately required reading if you're searching for information on the Hebrews.
Quote:The Jews grew out of the existing Canaanites.
That's very simplistic, it's like saying the French came out of the existing Germans. Canaan isn't an ethnic term, it refers to the Levant area; modern Lebanon, Israel, Palestine, Sinai, up into the borders of Egypt. Many peoples of different ethnicity, culture and political and tribal affiliation lived in that land.
The Canaanites were considered famous merchants from an early time, so obviously they lend themselves to the Phoenician kingdoms which were contemporous with Israel. The Jews even used to use the word Canaanite when referring to merchants.
Quote:Thus while Phoenician and Canaanite refer to the same culture, archaeologists and historians commonly refer to the Bronze Age, pre-1200 BCE Levantines as Canaanites and their Iron Age descendants, particularly those living on the coast as Phoenicians.
linky
There is a lot more going for the Phoenician - Canaanite theory, but you're a big boy and you can research for yourself.
Quote:They had the same rites and believed in the same gods and spoke the same language without any Egyptian words that one would expect had they really come out of Egypt.
I never said they had came out from Egypt. Although consideringthe area was under Egyptian rule at the time......
You also can't say all Canaanites believed in the same gods, even from city to city religious beliefs changed. Bronze Age religion is a multi-headed hydra, and no two regions had the same set of beliefs or rituals (although certain rituals are near universal throughout the world, for very different reasons than ethnicity)
Quote:Many gods had the title Bel after their name when they were consolidating the gods. Baal specifically was a solar deity.
Well, provide evidence, in the mean time, I'll make the case that Ba'al is not a Sun God.
Shapash is the Canaanite Goddess of the Sun.....so that means Baal isn't.
Quote:Historically, this confusion was resolved in the nineteenth century as new archaeological evidence indicated multiple gods bearing the title Ba'al and little about them that connected them to the sun. In 1899, the Encyclopædia Biblica article Baal by W. Robertson Smith and George F. Moore states:
That Baal was primarily a sun-god was for a long time almost a dogma among scholars, and is still often repeated. This doctrine is connected with theories of the origin of religion which are now almost universally abandoned. The worship of the heavenly bodies is not the beginning of religion. Moreover, there was not, as this theory assumes, one god Baal, worshipped under different forms and names by the Semitic peoples, but a multitude of local Baals, each the inhabitant of his own place, the protector and benefactor of those who worshipped him there. Even in the astro-theology of the Babylonians the star of Bēl was not the sun: it was the planet Jupiter. There is no intimation in the OT that any of the Canaanite Baals were sun-gods, or that the worship of the sun (Shemesh), of which we have ample evidence, both early and late, was connected with that of the Baals ; in 2 Kings 23:5-11 the cults are treated as distinct.
Looks like your over a century late with that whole sun-god theory.
