Knowing everything and allowing evil

[Abracadabra]

But if you are open to the possibility that this higher being may actually be an intimate part of your very own consciousness, (or vice versa) then we might actually make some progress.

'May' as in 'possible'? I'm a skeptic,of course I concede the possibility. At present I'm unable to believe it to be the case.I will gladly change my mind as soon on as is see some proof.

Well, for whatever it's worth, the quote you posted above was my response to Rhythm who was actually inquiring about what it might take to consider my spiritual views.

It's not my intent to try to convince anyone of my spiritual views if they are not interested. I have absolutely nothing against people who chose to believe that all of reality is of a secular nature. That's cool with me.

What I object to is when people try to imply that I'm stupid for having any spiritual beliefs at all. Or if they try to claim that science has completely ruled out any possible spiritual essence to reality. That simply isn't true and I'm not about to stand by and allow people to misrepresent science like that even.

As promised,I checked your claim about quantum fields being based on metaphysics.. I did so because I have only high school physics and do not claim to understand quantum physics..

I post a couple of replies I got from posting your claim on two other forums, from people who,unlike me have a bit of physics.

I'm both impressed and honored that you would give my views respect enough to actually follow up on that. Thank you for that respect.

I thought a quantum field was a tool to describe the infinite number of possible degrees of freedom any quantum mechanical system contains, and to describe interactions within that quantum mechanical system. Saying a quantum field exists is akin to saying e=mc2 exists, it is just a tool for understanding nature, and as such is a representation. It helps us to make predictions about quantum mechanical interactions, and try to understand them. Obviously the quantum mechanical world is thought to "exist", otherwise we couldn't make observations and predictions.

I agree with this gentleman completely on both counts.

Yes, from a pure mathematical perspective "quantum fields" are indeed nothing more than an abstract mathematical tool. I'm in total agreement with that on a mathematical level.

However, as this gentleman also acknowledges, from the standpoint of physics, physicists really have no choice but to "believe" that these fields do have some sort of real "existence". After all, in physics we talking about actual events that come out of these fields that we can measure and observe. Thus we have compelling reasons to believe that they have some "reality" of their own.

Yet, at the very same time, these "quantum fields" are completely undetectable in and of themselves. The only reason we have for believing that they exist is because detectable particles keep popping into existence from them.

Moreover, and far more importantly, these otherwise undetectable "quantum fields" apparently have specific and precise properties that "belong" to them. In other words, we only see certain kinds of particles popping into and out of existence. This implies that these otherwise undetectable fields must "contain" information. Otherwise, they couldn't have the properties that we abstractly assign to them and observe when they are excited.

Therefore, my "conclusion" in all of this is that apparently "information" can indeed exist in "fields" which are, for all intents and purposes, totally undetectable in a physical sense when not excited (i.e. when they aren't being excited they basically have the property of being "metaphysical" fields.

Does this prove that all metaphysical ideas must then also exist?

Of course not, but IMHO, surely it's sufficient grounds to justify a belief that other metaphysical concepts may also be possible.

The NAG is sort of correct, but not for the reasons he thinks. He's talking about two different things.

Quantum fields exist, can be measured, and can be described mathematically with great precision. They are the foundation on which physics is built.

Humans cannot conceptualize the quantum world. Our concepts are therefore rather metaphysical in nature, because that is the best we can do. It is not the quantum field which is metaphysical, it is our concepts which are (sort of).

Just because our conceptualization is somewhat metaphysical, it does not mean that quantum fields don't exist, nor does it mean that the question of the existence of a god, (an entirely metaphysical concept) is a legitimate science question.

Well, this gentleman seems to take a similar stance to the last, and I have no real problem with anything that he's saying here either.

To begin I never claimed that the question of the existence of God is a legitimate science question. It may or may not be. It's kind of like String Theory in that sense. If someone can ever come up with a concept of "God" that can be observational determined via scientific experiment then it would certainly become a question of science. I'm not offering any such possible experiment or prediction that could be tested by our current scientific methods. Thus I am not even suggesting that God is a legitimate science question.

I'm sure that I had never proposed anything along those lines.

My only position is that "My own personal spiritual concepts and ideas on spirituality cannot be ruled out by current scientific inquiry" And therefore they remain within the realm of plausibility.

That's all I'm saying.

I'm not trying to "prove'" to anyone that God exists. (don't take my signature line too seriously, it's really just an artistic display of my own spiritual beliefs in the plausibility of spirituality, not meant to be ramming the idea down anyone's throat)

I fully respect secular atheists who believe that reality is entire a random chance purely secular event. That's certainly a plausible situation as well.

However, I think it's pretty ignorant of them to treat me like as if I'm a complete nut case just because I'm drawn to other plausible conclusions.

All I ask is for mutual respect. I'm not asking anyone to believe like me. I'm not claiming that some angry God will hate them if they fail to believe in him.

I'm just a person who believes that a spiritual reality is just as plausible as a secular reality. And I confess that intuitively I'm convinced that it is spiritual. Logically I can't prove it to you, or even to myself. But I have never claimed to be able to do that.

But don't try to tell me that science has fully determined that a spiritual reality has been completely ruled out as being utterly impossible and implausible.

That's simple not true. And I'm not about to stand by silently whilst people make such outrageous unscientific claims and claim that it has scientific merit. That's just not the case at all.

Science has not proven that the universe is purely secular and cannot be spiritual. That's simply not true. It's false information. being spread by secular atheists as if its some sort of scientific "fact".

That's just a false impression of what science can actually tell us at this current time. It's basically a lie to put it bluntly. Yet some secular atheists are 'teaching' people to believe it as if it's a 'scientific fact'.

And that's what I object to.

Science has not confirmed or proven that secular atheism is the only possible explanation for reality. That's simply hogwash.