Yahweh: The worshiping of a Volcano / fire GOD of War.

[TheJackel]

Wyatt did not develop this idea, as I said others did years before, they were on this site without the Saudis knowing it, the fences went up at the site only after Wyatt made this information public. You have ignored what I posted for your biased opinion.

Hardly biased.. But of course we expect that kind of answer from you.

I have been to Hawaii recently, and I do know something about volcanoes, unlike yourself. The Hawaii volcanoes are not a good example to use, first of all they are in a tropical setting, allowing people comfortable temps mainly because of an almost constant breeze coming off the cool ocean waters.

Not relevant..

Second there is plenty of water, it rains some where on the islands every day, fresh water is no more than a puddle away, let lone all the fresh water that runs off the mountains.

Not relevant

I have not seen anyone in Hawaii that lives on the lava flows and if you take a tour to the flows you must wear boots to protect your feet. Encase you haven't noticed the volcano on the main island has destroyed many subdivisions and people do not rebuild on these cooled flows. Just a few facts eh.

Where in the bible does it state that people live "on Lava Flows" ?. And on volcanoes killing people, yeah maybe that's why they feared their GOD.. You haven't bothered to read the bible have you?

Those relatively close views are done with powerful lenses on the cameras.

Again ignorance is bliss here for you..

You are right not every volcano is like Mt. St. Hellens, however the description you give of the volcano producing lightning takes a large amount of ash in the atmosphere.

Yep, and you can see that from quite a distance, and at a safe distance.

The Israel people would be familiar with ash, because an island volcano in the Mediterranean Sea cover the Nile delta around 1500BC and killed many people.

Yep, the the Mediterranean people aslo worshiped "Mountain GODS" .. And again you are not making a relevant point.

Since this is the area they lived near they would have known and feared this kind of an eruption, do not come back with these people would not know about deadly eruptions, they were not stupid people as you would have them to be, you need them to be stupid to fit your ideas. People who could raise up the great building works as they did were not stupid, that is an idea you need to get over.

This is a pretty wild assumption you make and if that is your basis for objection of the articles points, you are indeed grasping straws my friend.

I have already addressed those islands and no need to revisit. They did not worship a volcano god, they worshiped a real and powerful God.

So did those who claim to worship Pelee.. Oh wait... Yeah attaching a persona to a volcano is where you obviously get confused here. And sorry, they did worship a Volcano GOD. And I have yet to see you actually address anything written in the article of the scripture in question.

People like you will use any crazy idea to eliminate the true God, try as you may He is never going away.

Yes volcanoes will be around for quite a while...Much longer than we as a species for sure.

Do you know what nomad means, they do not stay in one place for a year, they have to move because of limited resources.

Of course... Your point is pointless to establishing the fact that these nomads worshiped a volcano GOD..

The Israeli nation camped at the bottom of this mountain for a year, where they had water and food supplied by God, your volcano could not do this, you completely ignored my question and statement about the water.

Ever hear of trade routes and supply lines? And again, you are making assumptions of which volcano they were at as some of those volcanoes in that region are in habitable areas.

Exodus 19 says the people camped before the mountain and God warned that no one not even a beast shall touch the mountain, these people were not afraid of the mountain, they had to be warned not to go up on the mountain, sound scared eh.

Oh yeah lets look at that shall we:

9 The LORD said to Moses, “I am going to come to you in a dense cloud, so that the people will hear me speaking with you and will always put their trust in you.” Then Moses told the LORD what the people had said.

10 And the LORD said to Moses, “Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow. Have them wash their clothes 11 and be ready by the third day, because on that day the LORD will come down on Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people. 12 Put limits for the people around the mountain and tell them, ‘Be careful that you do not approach the mountain or touch the foot of it. Whoever touches the mountain is to be put to death. 13 They are to be stoned or shot with arrows; not a hand is to be laid on them. No person or animal shall be permitted to live.’ Only when the ram’s horn sounds a long blast may they approach the mountain.”

14 After Moses had gone down the mountain to the people, he consecrated them, and they washed their clothes. 15 Then he said to the people, “Prepare yourselves for the third day. Abstain from sexual relations.”

16 On the morning of the third day there was thunder and lightning, with a thick cloud over the mountain, and a very loud trumpet blast. Everyone in the camp trembled. 17 Then Moses led the people out of the camp to meet with God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain. 18 Mount Sinai was covered with smoke, because the LORD descended on it in fire. The smoke billowed up from it like smoke from a furnace, and the whole mountain[b] trembled violently. 19 As the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder, Moses spoke and the voice of God answered him.[c]

Yeah that sounds like a brush fire..cough cough cough!. And wasn't it you that stated you need an ash cloud for thunder and lightning? Did you even read Exodus?.. Fun stuff!

Grasping at straws, don't think so, these people needed water and God provided the water.

yes you are grasping at straws..

You are deliberately avoiding this because you have no answer for an essential need. If you knew about volcanoes you would know that if there is no fresh running surface water from rain there is no good water to use for every day needs.

Please provide a scientific peer review that shows there wasn't any water to drink.. And then tell us how your argument here is at all relevant to whether or not people worshiped a volcano GOD.

http://books.google.com/books?id=S-Kpo2b...er&f=false

I challenge you to go to Yellow Stone and drink the water, the waters that come out from the ground in the caldera, take some ice.

It's simple, they tell you to boil it:

http://www.nps.gov/yell/planyourvisit/hiking.htm

And who states one need needs drink water from the Caldera?..

You got to be kidding, these people are not stupid, they did not know the enter workings of a volcano, they did however know they will devastate everything around. If you take away Moses and his accent on the mountain, you might as well do away with the whole story, don't be so ridiculous.

You will be amazed at what people would do to meet their "GOD".. And of course they understood their GOD would devastate everything around them.., that's depicted in the scripture to! Amazing!

What you have posted is nothing more than a way to put away the God of creation, and as far as I'm concerned it is a giant fail.

Oh I don't need the Volcano GOD in the Bible to do that.. :

There was always the toughest question you could ask such religious people.. This question is usually one that either exposes their delusion and refusal to see reality as it is, or it triggers a spark of rationality and commonsense... It only takes thinking about this question and contemplating it from every angle. The question is so simple that it will literally blow your mind as to how simple it is and why it alone has the power to collapse such arguments as an uncaused, all powerful ect Abrahamic deity. In this question you will realize our true source of origin, and the actual governor of all things, or what does dictate all there is. You will learn that it is everything there is as it is literally every place, object, substance, or being. You will learn the only thing that can truly be considered "omnipresent", "all powerful", and "omniscient" to the limits of their possibility... So what question could I simply ask that can do and be all that I say above? Well, here it is:

What is GOD without Existence?

Well, this question is good news for Pantheists, but very bad news for Christians, Islamists, Jews, or all the other GOD's believed to exist, or believed to have existed.. The Pantheist GOD is existence itself, and only their GOD is empirically proven to exist, be considered all powerful, all knowing, omnipresent, eternal, and the governor and creator of all there is. And the funny part is..., We are all in and of existence.

Is it not you begging us to believe your god "exists"? OOPS! Next:

The only thing the Qur'an would have to say about this would be copied from the Torah. the Qur'an was written nearly 2500 years after the Torah.

It's irrelevant, they worship the same GOD, and it's shows up in their literature to, and it shows up in the Torah:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Vb9LUUV...&q&f=false

Yeah you can read the footnotes.. Fun stuff!

Assumption, go walk on a lava field in sandals then come tell me of an assumption, I think about the real aspects of life, how these people could live at the base of a mountain or for you a volcano for a year. Next if people worship Pelee today that has no bearing on the Israeli nation of old. Bet they would not trek up Pelee if it was erupting. The vids were cute and nothing more than that.

Who said they have to walk on a Lava field? many volcanoes erupt mostly in one direction to where most of the lava flows down. Yep, it doesn't always happen on all sides..

Bet they would not trek up Pelee if it was erupting.

And yet the video I provided shows people sitting right next to an active volcano.. You didn't bother to watch that video did you?

What brush fire are you talking about, I never mentioned a brush fire. Actually I said there could not be a fire because there was no vegetation on Jebel al Lawz other than a few bushes. Get real and address the question, how could the granite top, and only the top, have been burnt so badly that it will fracture like glass.

Please provide a scientific peer reviewed paper... And I say that because It is true that the rocks on top are dark, but this is because they are basalt rocks with intrusive dikes of lighter color rocks, not because fire burnt them. But lets overview the problems here:

According to Cornuke, the scholar Frank Moore Cross of Harvard Divinity School supports his Mt. Sinai claims, but according to Franz, "Frank Moore Cross, retired professor of Hebrew at Harvard University opines that the mountain of God was located in the Land of Midian. When asked if he had a guess what mountain might be Mt. Sinai, he responded, 'I really don't'" and Moore "later put the "Midian Hypothesis" in print, but did not endorse any mountains for the location of Mt. Sinai (Cross 1998: 60-68)." Another critic noted the "BASE institute site had some quotes from respected archaeologists which seemed to support the idea that Jebel al-Lawz was a good candidate for Mount Sinai," but, "when I contacted some of these individuals, they assured me they never made such statements, neither did they feel Jebel al-Lawz was the real Mount Sinai." Thus, "it became quickly obvious that some of the information on the BASE Institute site was not legitimate."
Bob Cornuke - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cornuke and Halbrook (2000) claim that a mountain in Saudia Arabia, called "Jabal al Lawz" is Mt. Sinai of the Bible. This claimed is based on, among other dubious "evidence," their interpretation that the top of Jabal al Lawz is "melted" and "charred" as the result of events described in the Bible. Unfortunately, geologists, who are familiar with the geology of the area, in which Cornuke and Halbrook (2000) claimed to have found Mt. Sinai, would certainly not regard their ideas about Jabal al Lawz being Mt. Sinai a "remarkable geological find." Rather, they would regard their interpretation that the top of Jabal al Lawz had been both melted and charred by any event during the last few thousand years to be a remarkable geological blunder on the part of Cornuke and Halbrook (2000).
Any geologist looking at the pictures of Jabal al Lawz readily recognizes that the dark-colored rocks shown in the pictures of Jabal al Lawz shown at Bob Cornuke's web page are quite clearly roof pendants of darker-colored rocks intruded by younger, light-colored rocks. In fact if a person examines the published geological maps of the Jabal al Lawz, i.e. Bramkamp et al. (1963) and Trent and Johnson (1967), they would find that these geological maps confirm this interpretation. These maps shows that bulk of Jabal al Lawz to be composed of light-colored granite and red or salmon granite. The dark-colored rocks comprising the summits are small areas mapped as (older) greenstone. These greenstone outcrops are roof pedants of older rocks that have been intruded by the red or salmon granite. North of this mountain are additional outcrops of older gabbro into which the granites have intruded.
A roof pendant is: "A body of country rock surrounded by intrusive rock."
The descriptions of the units from youngest to oldest in the stratigraphic column within the in the Jabal al Lawz area as given by Bramkamp et al. (1963) are:
"gm = Granite. Massive, light-colored calc- alkaline granite, mostly without large dikes, in large discordant stocks and batholiths on the flanks of Jabal al Lawz, Jabal Rawa, and Jabal ash Shati.
gr = Granite. red or salmon, coarse-grained, commonly highly altered espcially in the mountains on the eastern shore of the Gulf of Aqaba; widely scattered throught the Underlying granite and granodiorite and cut by many dikes of basalt, rhyolite, and diabase. (This unit intrudes an older granite and granodiorite, unit gg in places).
gb = Gabbro. In stocks and sills associated with the greenstone. Some basic intrusives may be younger than the granite and granodiorite unit, gg.
gd = Greenstone. Diabase, andesite, and basalt; mostly flows, somewhat metamorphosed to greenschist facies, locally to amphibolite."
The greenstone (gd) overlies older folded calcareous and siliceous schist and slate Silasia formation elsewhere in the area. Bramkamp et al. (1963) regards these rock units to be Pre-Cambrian age. It is intruded by the red or salmon (gr) and preserved as roof pendants as observed by both Bramkamp et al. (1963) and Trent and Johnson (1967).
Even some Young Earth creationists dispute the claim that the rocks exposed at the top of Jabal al Lawz are either charred or melted. Their brief comments can be found in "PROBLEM NO. 11: Melted or Burned Rocks From Jebel al-Lawz are Volcanic" at:
Problems with Mt. Sinai in Saudi Arabia
Essentially, direct oservations by both "secular" and religious geologists of the Jabal al Lawz region readily refute argument by Cornuke and Halbrook (2000) that the top of Jabal al Lawz has been either charred or recently melted. If the rocks on the summit of Jabal al Lawz look "melted" it is because they consist of metamorphosed lava and other extrusive igneous rocks called "greenstone", formed from the cooling of once molten rocks billions of years before the Israelites even existed. This "remarkable find" is actually a remarkable blunder on the part of people, who obviously didn't understand anything about the geology of the area that they were studying. There is nothing about the geology of Jabal al Lawz that indicates it was either melted or charred by any event reported to have occurred by the Bible.
TalkOrigins Archive - Feedback for December 2003
Two treasure hunters stood on the top of Jebel al-Lawz thinking it was the real Mt. Sinai, the "Mountain of God". One was struck with fear because he thought he was trespassing on the "holiest place on earth". As he gulped down Gatorade and munched on M & M's, a sense of guilt overcame him because he had forged a letter from the king of Saudi Arabia in order to obtain a visa into the Kingdom (Cornuke and Halbrook 2000: 10, 11, 74, 77, 79; Blum 1998: 206). Should he have felt guilty for this deceit? Yes, what he did was illegal, and offended the honor of the Saudi Arabian people. Should he have been afraid because he was on the holy mountain of God (Ex. 19:12)? No, because he was standing on the wrong mountain. MT. SINAI IS NOT IN SAUDI ARABIA!

This article will examine four aspects of the question regarding whether or not Mt. Sinai is located in Saudi Arabia. First, the credibility of the claims will be questioned. Second, the false assumptions by the proponents of Jebel al-Lawz will be disputed. Third, the Biblical evidence will be discussed. Fourth, the archaeological evidence will be examined.

Mount Sinai was the destination of Moses and the Children of Israel after the Lord miraculously delivered them from the bondage of Egypt (Ex. 18:5). It was from this mountain that the Lord also gave the Ten Commandments to Moses and the people of Israel (Ex. 19:1-3, 11,18; 20:1-17). Here, too, the prophet Elijah found himself after his escape from wicked Queen Jezebel (I Kings 19).

Pilgrims, scholars and tourists have visited the traditional site, Jebel Musa (Arabic for the Mountain of Moses) for more than 1,600 years. In the early 4th century AD Eusebius of Caesarea placed Mt. Sinai in the southern Sinai Peninsula. When Egeria made a pilgrimage to the East between AD 381 and 384, she visited Jebel Musa as Mt. Sinai (Wilkinson 1981: 1, 18, 91-100). This impressive mountain located in the southern Sinai Peninsula is situated behind the Byzantine monastery of St. Catherine's built by Emperor Justinian in the middle of the sixth century AD (Tsafrir 1978:219).

It may come as a surprise to most people, but scholars have identified 13 different sites as the "real" Mount Sinai (Har-el 1983:2). I would agree with the proponents of the Jebel al-Lawz hypothesis that Jebel Musa, the traditional Mt. Sinai, or any other site in the southern Sinai Peninsula, could not be the real Mt. Sinai. Professor Har-el in his book, The Sinai Journeys, has argued very convincingly, against the southern Sinai theory (1983: 175-233).

Recently, six American treasure hunters have added a 14th mountain to the already long list of candidates for the real Mt. Sinai: Jebel al-Lawz.
Is Mt. Sinai in Saudi Arabia, by Gordon Franz

Cornuke claims the signs on the fence surrounding Jebel al-Lawz said, "No Trespassing Allowed. Violators Will Be Put to Death" (Cornuke and Halbrook 2000: 1). Yet if one looks at the photograph in Blum's book, the sign actually says, "Archaeological area warning: It is unlawful to trespass. Violators are subject to penalties stipulated in the antiquities regulations passed by royal decree no. M 26, U 23.6.1392" (1998: plate 4, top). Williams (1990: 157) just mentions the fines, but not the death penalty.

That's fun!

The problem lies with you and your ridiculous idea of a volcano god, you read into scripture what you want to see, why, because you want to do away with the God of creation.

Useless dogma to this discussion..

If it were a load of crap there would be no reason for them to fence it and other sights off, tell me why have they not fenced off your purposed site.

Sure they do, because they need something to distract people from Mount Sinai, the mountain of GOD from being established as a Volcano that it was... Most Archeologists agree today that Mt Sinai had to be one of the volcanoes or even possibly all the volcanoes in the region. And the strongest support other than the scripture is the Shasu of YHW..

It's like this, they know it is no threat to there beliefs, they will do everything they can to keep christian truth from coming out, so they fences off those areas.

They share the same GOD, and they are just as worried about the fact that people might actually figure it out...Not that we haven't already..

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All of you need to take a minutes to explore the geology section of any book store, where basic popular geology books about volcanos will enrich your knowledge about them greatly.

1. Majority of volcanic activities do not involve lava spewing above ground.

2. Most volcanic eruptions are small, and produce only modest amounts of ash, which can safely be walked on within a few days of eruption with your bare feet. You have a good chance of living through these eruptions even if you stand within 500 yards..

3. Many active volcanic edifaces support springs, as well as steam and gas vents. Most volcanic eruptions stink, but few produce enough gases to securely kill you if its down wind and several hundred yards away.

4. Many volcanic eruptions can be so slow in action that you can't tell anything is happening by just looking at it.

No disagreement there ..

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Thanks for answering. No big deal.

You have me quite curious now... I tried to do a search on this site to see if I had ever been here before as I have been to more than a few sites over the years.. However I can not find anything, and I don't exactly recognize this site. I am pretty sure I haven't been here before as a registered user. I know it's not a big deal but I'm rather quite curious.. If I had, it must have been quite a while ago. Do you have a record for the screen name "TheJackel" ?