RE: Morality
April 16, 2012 at 10:45 pm
(This post was last modified: April 16, 2012 at 11:30 pm by Drich.)
[quote='RaphielDrake' pid='273382' dateline='1334607830']
[quote]What do you mean "back to topic" you silly little man? He just gave you a very in-depth and honest analysis of possible reasons why morality exists which is essentially the crux of the subject matter.
Look, if you haven't got a decent response thats *fine*. Just stop crying, take off the dress, man up and just say "fair point". [/quote]
Again not something being discussed by me. If you wish to have a chicken or the egg discussion on morality then by all means... Sorry, I am not interested.
[quote='parttimeprojectionist' pid='273417' dateline='1334610459']
[quote]i guess i could've gone a little deeper. i didn't say murder is always wrong, there is most def. times to kill.
but i cant think of a single instance where genocide is moral, which is what god supposedly did. and just accepting that as being ok because it was sanctioned by god says a lot about you. it says you are immoral. by any societal standard. unless there is some society who's entire population is made of psychopaths.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/[/quote] you are correct in that "morality says it is never ok to commit geneocide, until it is.. There are many soceities that have committed genocide and moraly justified their actions by doing so.
A simple honest look at world history will confirm that. Which confrimes my orginal assessment. Morality is a
[quote]i really do understand what your explaining about slavery here. this is first time i have understood the bible in that context. thanks for being the first one to put that into a meaningful explanation, and it does make sense. but what you've done is look at one part and not the other. yes we are slaves to certain things, work, societal norms, familys so on. but there are things in the bible that cant be misconstrued or explained away by analogies or minimized because "slave also meant this". because there are parts that talk about slaves in the exact same context as western society would consider them by any standard.
"The following passage shows that slaves are clearly property to be bought and sold like livestock.
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)"
there is so much in just this passage,... ethnocentrism, slavery, the idea of land ownership. these are all very western ideas btw.[/quote]
Indeed, as they were literal slaves they would have been bought and sold, and they were disiplined as slaves. However that is where the simlarities end. There were a whole host of rules and regulations that governed the treatment and welfare of the slave community, and a whole nother set of rule governing jewish slaves. People in those times in exchange for room board, safty of their families, for marriage rights, and land grabs, live stock, to learn a trade, and just about anything else you could imagine sold themselves and their whole families into slavery for up to 7 years at a time as a way to barter for things they wanted from the Haves/rich.
You can not look at one aspect of what you understand to be "slavery" and not look at the whole picture if you want to make an honest assessment.
[quote] you've kinda made an ignorance is bliss statement here. not being burdened by thinking and changing and evolving, advancing forward and bringing up your fellow human being to the next level. (which is probably what you think your doing, and makes it s own statement about purpose) bring people up to that next level takes effort and most of the times it requires breaking with societal norms. [/quote]
Without a solid knoweledge of the standards in which we came how can we know we are moving UP to the next level and not Down to the next level? Or is simple movement good enough in your estimation?
[quote]which i feel like you have forgotten that it is atheism is not in within these norms, you and your beliefs are. atheist are the ones ostracized from society. [/quote]
Not even close Christianity is the only social group that is acceptiable to be openly bigottedly hateful against.
[quote]you just happened to be in atheist territory surrounded, so its understandable you would be defensive, as we are also because we always find ourselves on the defensive. [/quote]My fazther is an atheist and has never had to defend what he believes to anyone that he himself did not engauge. I on the other hand am subject to "pop quizes" any time i am at home or in public. You have that very same ablity to be anomious if you wished it for yourself. The only reason you all feel challenged is because you challenge those or will not allow those who think differently than you do the freedom to do so.
[quote]moral evolution has an ebb and flow, its doing that as we discuss it right now. but i would think its safe to say it has progressed forward, maybe even because of the bible, but what you believe in is a hinderance to society moving forward. [/quote]
Then you truly and most sincerily do not understand what i believe. For through the attonement offered by Christ we are free from a works based righteousness, to embrace Morality as we can best understand it. You on the other hand wish to tie your "goodness" to a strict adhearance to your current moral standard. In the name of moving forward into legalistic soceity that demands it's citizens to obey a very tightly defined sense of morality. (Kinda like what they have in India and their cast systems.) That does not allow thought that opposes what has been deemed morally acceptable.
[quote]you say that god takes away your burdens and lightens your load. i could be wrong but maybe you haven't considered that understanding that there is no god is a gigantic burden lifted off you shoulders, the freeing nature of non belief on your mind is indescribable.[/quote]If you see God as a burden then you do not understand Christianity and the nature of the life you live without him.
[quote]you see the world for what it is and things make more sense. a lot also doesn't but not in an ignorance is bliss way. those things you don't understand make you want to know more. (did that sound gay?LOL. o well)[/quote] One of the reason I answer your questions is because i ran out of questions on my own. I want to know more but there isn't any more that i know to ask. I answer the questions I have asked before or see an interest in asking for the first time. If you are wanting answers then "your pitching for the wrong team."
[quote]What do you mean "back to topic" you silly little man? He just gave you a very in-depth and honest analysis of possible reasons why morality exists which is essentially the crux of the subject matter.
Look, if you haven't got a decent response thats *fine*. Just stop crying, take off the dress, man up and just say "fair point". [/quote]
Again not something being discussed by me. If you wish to have a chicken or the egg discussion on morality then by all means... Sorry, I am not interested.
[quote='parttimeprojectionist' pid='273417' dateline='1334610459']
[quote]i guess i could've gone a little deeper. i didn't say murder is always wrong, there is most def. times to kill.
but i cant think of a single instance where genocide is moral, which is what god supposedly did. and just accepting that as being ok because it was sanctioned by god says a lot about you. it says you are immoral. by any societal standard. unless there is some society who's entire population is made of psychopaths.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/[/quote] you are correct in that "morality says it is never ok to commit geneocide, until it is.. There are many soceities that have committed genocide and moraly justified their actions by doing so.
A simple honest look at world history will confirm that. Which confrimes my orginal assessment. Morality is a
[quote]i really do understand what your explaining about slavery here. this is first time i have understood the bible in that context. thanks for being the first one to put that into a meaningful explanation, and it does make sense. but what you've done is look at one part and not the other. yes we are slaves to certain things, work, societal norms, familys so on. but there are things in the bible that cant be misconstrued or explained away by analogies or minimized because "slave also meant this". because there are parts that talk about slaves in the exact same context as western society would consider them by any standard.
"The following passage shows that slaves are clearly property to be bought and sold like livestock.
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)"
there is so much in just this passage,... ethnocentrism, slavery, the idea of land ownership. these are all very western ideas btw.[/quote]
Indeed, as they were literal slaves they would have been bought and sold, and they were disiplined as slaves. However that is where the simlarities end. There were a whole host of rules and regulations that governed the treatment and welfare of the slave community, and a whole nother set of rule governing jewish slaves. People in those times in exchange for room board, safty of their families, for marriage rights, and land grabs, live stock, to learn a trade, and just about anything else you could imagine sold themselves and their whole families into slavery for up to 7 years at a time as a way to barter for things they wanted from the Haves/rich.
You can not look at one aspect of what you understand to be "slavery" and not look at the whole picture if you want to make an honest assessment.
[quote] you've kinda made an ignorance is bliss statement here. not being burdened by thinking and changing and evolving, advancing forward and bringing up your fellow human being to the next level. (which is probably what you think your doing, and makes it s own statement about purpose) bring people up to that next level takes effort and most of the times it requires breaking with societal norms. [/quote]
Without a solid knoweledge of the standards in which we came how can we know we are moving UP to the next level and not Down to the next level? Or is simple movement good enough in your estimation?
[quote]which i feel like you have forgotten that it is atheism is not in within these norms, you and your beliefs are. atheist are the ones ostracized from society. [/quote]
Not even close Christianity is the only social group that is acceptiable to be openly bigottedly hateful against.[quote]you just happened to be in atheist territory surrounded, so its understandable you would be defensive, as we are also because we always find ourselves on the defensive. [/quote]My fazther is an atheist and has never had to defend what he believes to anyone that he himself did not engauge. I on the other hand am subject to "pop quizes" any time i am at home or in public. You have that very same ablity to be anomious if you wished it for yourself. The only reason you all feel challenged is because you challenge those or will not allow those who think differently than you do the freedom to do so.
[quote]moral evolution has an ebb and flow, its doing that as we discuss it right now. but i would think its safe to say it has progressed forward, maybe even because of the bible, but what you believe in is a hinderance to society moving forward. [/quote]
Then you truly and most sincerily do not understand what i believe. For through the attonement offered by Christ we are free from a works based righteousness, to embrace Morality as we can best understand it. You on the other hand wish to tie your "goodness" to a strict adhearance to your current moral standard. In the name of moving forward into legalistic soceity that demands it's citizens to obey a very tightly defined sense of morality. (Kinda like what they have in India and their cast systems.) That does not allow thought that opposes what has been deemed morally acceptable.
[quote]you say that god takes away your burdens and lightens your load. i could be wrong but maybe you haven't considered that understanding that there is no god is a gigantic burden lifted off you shoulders, the freeing nature of non belief on your mind is indescribable.[/quote]If you see God as a burden then you do not understand Christianity and the nature of the life you live without him.
[quote]you see the world for what it is and things make more sense. a lot also doesn't but not in an ignorance is bliss way. those things you don't understand make you want to know more. (did that sound gay?LOL. o well)[/quote]
One of the reason I answer your questions is because i ran out of questions on my own. I want to know more but there isn't any more that i know to ask. I answer the questions I have asked before or see an interest in asking for the first time. If you are wanting answers then "your pitching for the wrong team."
