Is belief in God a choice

[fr0d0]

But we are talking about my belief. My authority is that I believe this stuff. Your authority is one of guessing what I think.

The fact you believe it is fucking irrelevant to the matter of whether you can choose it or not. The fact you are the one with the 'belief' doesn't give you any more authority over you having a choice in it...

Believing that a belief is a matter of choice, is not evidence that it is - that's circular bullshit reasoning.

You're swearing again. Please try to stay rational.

Again you miss the point. *sighs*. The belief we are discussing is the belief I hold. It is not 'unique' or 'different', but a mainstream & common understanding of the term. I'll say it again, you are discussing what I believe and not what you think belief is. That would be a completely different conversation. I hope you see that, and don't misunderstand this very simple statement yet again.

"Authority" doesn't mean 'superiority'. I'm claiming no high ground here. Just trying to establish the subject. Please get off your high horse and discuss it. Or not. If you do not with to discuss my belief, fine. Conversation over.

But how would you know, having no belief in the way I have belief, and admitting that it is outside your understanding? You're dismissing fact without considering it.

'In the way you have belief' - what, redefining the whole definition of belief you mean? Or are you using belief as a synonym for 'having faith' basically, and not a matter of whether you actually believe or not? In which case - it's just a fucking pascal's wager...it's belief in belief, it's that you think belief is a 'good thing' so it's best to hold it...if you dont' literally actually have the belief, you just believe you do!!

Swearing againi. Boy you must be riled over this.

I am not redefining the meaning of belief. I actually hold a belief and do understand what I'm doing and the intricacies of that belief.

If you are seeking to define belief outside of that which I understand and hold, then how can you discuss the 'choice' that I believe there is. Obviously with your definition of belief, not being at all religious but solely scientific, then we have no discussion.

So. Are we talking about your belief... and the ability to choose or not, or mine and every Christian's belief.. which I thought was the subject here??

Do you believe that God exists or not? In any form, and in any dimenson - and don't give me something like 'what do you mean by 'exist'? or 'God is beyond existence', or some shit to that effect.

Do you believe there is or isn't a God? If you do...you have reasons to believe that there is right? You are convinced by that...and how did you choose this? How is this....a preference?!

I'm treating this as separate from you above diatribe, otherwise it would be completely nonsensical.
I believe in God. In no part of my conversion, both times, did the question 'exist' enter into it. Why would it? What has that to do with faith? Why do you think it's important? Where does that figure into religious belief? You are entering fallacious territory erecting an entity outside of my definition.

So you are talking about choosing between Buddhism & Christianity, for example? This is not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is the specific choice to believe in the Christian God.

Aka, special pleading. You believe that belief in the specifically, Christian God is an exception...but your mere belief is not evidence for the truth of it, that's circular, so where's your actual evidence that the Christian God is any different? It's just fucking special pleading isn't it?!

Or... enlighten me!

I'm not saying it's an exception at all. All I am saying is that this is all I know about, and can discuss. And as it's what we're talking about, I think it's relevant.

You're swearing again, which just makes me think you're being totally irrational.

Like I keep saying, any other definition of God is not my definition of God and I can't be bothered with endless theorizing over a subject neither of us knows nothing about. We have a topic for discussion.. address that.

I never said that my belief proved anything. Where did I say that?

Perhaps you consider other belief systems on your road to rationalizing a particular belief, I certainly did that, but this is subsidiary to the process rather than being the focus of rationalisation.

How on Earth is the Christian God any different? You believe it is...why? Is there actually a valid reason for you to believe its different, or is this per chance...just...bias? Just special pleading on your part?

As Jon Paul at pains pointed out - the Christian God is very different for the reasons that he gave. The Christian God is entirely rational and logical in definition. Other Gods are not. You sound incredulous like you never read Jon Paul's explanations. No other definition of God matches the perfect reasoning of the Christian God.

Again, this isn't really the topic at hand, and I'm not here to argue existence. We are discussing the possibility of choice to believe or not believe.

You're talking about belief in the actually known again, and I've explained why this doesn't apply.

No, I'm talking about belief. I don't believe you can absolutely 'know' anything for sure, I'm an agnostic on all matters...but agnosticism/gnosticsm is not my issue here, I'm talking about what belief actually is about - whether you believe something is or is not!.

You are being dishonest. You know what I mean by belief in the unknowable. It is completely different to not absolutely knowing anything. You're talking bullshit philosophy: that no one really knows they exist.. again you're off topic. Once more: We're talking about religious belief and not belief in the known.

You are redefining belief to be different in respect to specifically the Christian God, that this 'belief' is somehow different, but where's your evidence? What the fuck is this redefinition? And how is it worthy of the label 'belief' if it's a different thing entirely???

I am precisely not redefining belief. How can you, someone who professes to not understand or be able to even entertain the notion tell me I'm doing it wrong? Again, on what grounds? I'll tell you: Non religious grounds.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't we discussing the choice of religious belief, which I'm telling you, is not at all like the choice to believe that you have a nose.

We're not talking about the reasonableness of belief. I'm saying that because I have the belief I should know exactly what it is... more than you who neither acknowledges the possibility nor understands it.

But is it a belief? You believe you have a belief, but that's a belief that you have a belief, not the belief itself - that's just belief in belief.

I think you had a brain fart here

Do you believe God exists or not? Because considering you appear to be completely redefining 'belief' in respect to specifically your God, the Christian God - then how is this redefinion actually belief exactly, if it's a different thing?

Yeah, I believe in the Christian God, not 'any' god, but that precise one.

A different thing?? A different thing to your understanding... yet again!!!

How can you call it belief if it's 'different', what is this definiton of 'belief' that only applies to the Christian God and is completely different to believing in anything else - is it in the dictionary? !

Merriam-Webster: 1 a : to have a firm religious faith


--- more tomorrow - it's very late, and I'm tired ---

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Do we choose to not believe in Santa Claus?
No! We just realize he's not real and to keep ourselves from being childish and stupid we accept that and move on. Same difference. I was extremely let down when I figured out there was no Santa. I was very happy to realize there was no God. I thought about all of the "sins" I could commit and how much fun it was going to be to know that I didn't have to feel guilty about any of them.

Good question. No we don't 'choose' to believe in Santa Claus.. we're given no option, just presented lies. I laid a trap for Santa, and my Dad sprung it. I kept schtum because I figured I'd get more out of it that way.

Belief in God is a choice. If God is presented to you in a way that you cannot question, then the choice isn't given to you, you don't choose to believe. Therefore you are not a Christian, because Christianity is a choice. By definition.

If you thought you could commit 'sins' without feeling guilty, then I guess you must've abandoned your moral compass.. because to me, superstition aside, sin is just stuff that's destructive to self.