The debate is over

[Norfolk And Chance]

If a universe has always existed or came out of nothing, then there is no need for any gods. Name something that has never been needed that exists.

Let's not forget that at the simplest level, that god is a substitute for the unknowable.

I agree that if a universe always existed or came out of nothing, then there would not necessarily be a need for god(s), however, we do not know what happened before the big bang, so why is it nonsensical to suggest that god(s) could have always existed? If god(s) always existed, then there would not be a need for the universe to have always existed/come out of nothing. The god(s) could create it, since he/she/they exist beyond the temporal realm and are omnipotent.

Why is entirely possible that gods exist?

The universe has always existed; the universe came out of nothing.

Now, substitute "the universe" with god(s) and nothing changes. You just have one more step because god(s) would have to create the universe, which, if god(s) exist, isn't that big of a deal. If you are willing to believe the first two statements with "the universe" and deny the substitutions of "god(s)," how are you able to do so with one-hundred percent certainty? We have no knowledge of what came before the big bang, and it is "enitrely possible."

And if that brings us back to "well ok then, if gods created the universe, then who created the gods?"...

To which the apologist answer is usually along the lines of "the creator did not need creating, he is eternal"...

Obvious answer to that is "If you can postulate an eternal creator, then why can't the universe instead be eternal? And thus, why a need for a god?" and we're back to square one.

The bottom line for me is that I have no real reason to believe that there is any need for a creator of the universe. None at all.

I'm also content in the fact that "what was before the big bang" is a mystery that is unlikely to be ever solved, without having to make up an answer that possibly or certainly includes god.